Koestler's Bread Question

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

This may overlap with what Leon mentioned in another thread but what makes this card a Koestler's Bread Card ?

I have Waite Hoyt I purchased from Lew Lipset that I thought was from this set and it came back -- as a simple "W" card, I also have a Huggins like this one. Mine are blank-backed, I assume this one is too. I happened to buy in long ago because I wanted a Huggins card showing him as the Yankee skipper since that was his ticket to Cooperstown etc.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1921-Koesters-Bread-Miller-Huggins-Yankees-HOF-PSA-2_W0QQitemZ8746233242QQcategoryZ31718QQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem

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Posted By: barrysloate

According to the seller, who I spoke with regarding this set, he maintains that the Koestler's Bread cards were issued on a better quality paper stock than the W cards were. However, once the card is slabbed, you can no longer determine this. It's a tricky issue but he claims he has researched it.

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Posted By: Wesley

So the seller is saying that Koester Bread, a local NY bakery designed and released their own cards? And the cards were issued for Yankees only and no other? And these Yankee cards happen to precede the American Caramel Company E121s which used identical photos later?

Perhaps the seller can come on here and explain how he got this information.

By looking at the scans, it appears there is no difference between the Koester Bread cards and 1922 E121 blank-backed cards or the 1922 W575-1 blank-backed cards.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The seller is a regular poster but I will leave it up to him to chime in. It was PSA who graded it however, so hopefully they got it right.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Here is the thread on which the seller made his points:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1126279965/1126377277-Koester's+Bread+Babe+Ruth

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

I had a bunch of these at one time (all I have left is the Jesse Burkett) and don't recall there being a noticable difference in the quality of the stock on which the cards were printed. I'll compare when I get home later.

The stock issue aside, I don't believe there is any way to distinguish a Koester's card from its E121 counterpart. There are some Yankee and Giant players, however, that are not part of the E121 set, but were in the Koester's set because it was issued to comemorate the 1921 World Series between the two teams.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Show us your Burkett!!

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Posted By: Chris Bland

Not Kevin's, but I couldnt pass up an opportunity to show off my favorite card!

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Posted By: fkw

There are New York Giants players as well as Yankees (52 in all). There are other differnces besides the stock, the captions on front are slightly different on some cards (ie. "Outf." instead of "O.F.").

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

What does Jesse have in his hand?

A Tampa Bay Devil Ray by the tail?

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Posted By: Chris Bland

I think Jesse is holding a ball bag or a suitcase - either way he is well past his playing weight, which adds to the charm of the card IMO.

There is a card (E121 I believe) of Wilbert Robinson that shows him in the exact pose holding a bag very similar to the one Burkett is holding. I always thought it would be neat to have that card to pair with the Koester's Burkett, but I digress...

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Posted By: Larry

Hello to all..

The Koester's Issue was discussed before and has been clearly stated on e bay and here on forum but here is very concise differences:

E121 and 1921 Koesters have similar white paper stock except Koesters are Blank back HOWEVER certain players are not available in series 80 or series 120 that are only in W575-1 for example Alex Ferguson.

Koesters are JUST Yankees or Giants and were issued fall-winter 1921..E121 series 80 is 1921 but E121 series 120 was 1922.

We had and sold George"Babe Ruth" with Boston Uniform.... only in set 1921 but also had from EXACT same group and album Tom Rogers only in E121 1922, yet this group came together thru Mastronet and was originally graded by PSA and SGC crossed a couple due to request by customer that preferred as I do SGC holders in appearance. Mastronet, PSA and SGC recognized this claim...The Koester's find of which I only have left Huggins and Ferguson were all found together in one lot, everyone knows that so hear difference....how could all players be together unless Koester's was a subset..It is positive proof, as subtle as it may seem to some, it is less subtle than T206 Doyle variation...

Bob Meusel in E121 has abbreviated position as OF but in Koesters it is outf.

There are many other differences such as Waite Hoyt as pointed out by Rooky13 in his thread where he actually owned both cards...side by side

W575-1 and W501 look like E121/Koesters but often have jagged or oversized appearence and are grey, very lightly struck images compared to E121/Koester's yet players only in this set do not appear in either E121 set yet they do in Koester's..see Beckett 2004 guide checklist...

As far as differences, they are more apparent than Magie vs Magee but that is universally recognized, so should the subtle differences here. I do not know for sure if Koesters bread distributed these cards but someone out there has an advertisement that was seen by Mastro that shows this offered, o/w we would have no idea how it was "named Koesters Bread anyway"..which is stated in Beckett also..They are WRONG regarding W575-1 and Koesters, they are distinctively different in color, cut, size and paper stock..we have W575-1 Ruth w/ bird(not a plug!) and it is grayer and definately different than Koesters.

E121 is actually more similar to Koester's and Beckett is incorrect...Hopefully, I am being clear..One last thing..W501 is actually similar but has date G-4-22, only dated issue and is very similar otherwise to W575-1 which is NOT similar to Koesters except for basic format!...I did that all in one breath!

I do have scans if needed...Happy New Year To All...

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Posted By: Anonymous

What are your thoughts:




The backs are blank and I cannot see the photos or the outlines through back.

(Yes, I know the other Huggins is a Conlon card )

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

While I do not doubt that there was a Koesters set, I have some problems with your analysis of the cards. If there is an identifiable difference in caption, etc. relating to the Koesters as has been stated on some of the cards that would be a good sign, but there is not on every card- thus essentially making it virtually impossible to distinguish between W575-1 and Koesters.

About the W575-1 set...this is really just a garbage designation indicating all things that appear like E121 that are not identified on the back with a producer. There are AT LEAST 2 different sets being reported as W575-1.

1.)NOT ALL W575-1's come with the "stamped" images as you call them, and have the jagged borders. These cards (in my opinion only) bear remarkable resemblance to W501's only they lack the G-4-22 on the top of the card and are not numberred. They are produced on nearly identical card stock and have low-quality pictures like the W501's. I bought a collection of W501's several years ago, and within the stack were a handful of this type of W575-1's in them. It is also important to note that W501's also come with a similar jagged border much of the time (but not always).

2.)There is a second group of W575-1's that are identical to E121's in both feel and their picture quality. I currently own many of these cards. Included in this lot are the W575-1's with the known overprinted backs, ie. E-UNC Henry Johnson and E-UNC James Keating.

Interested to hear everyones thoughts,
-Rhett

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Just scanned some images about what I was talking about...

1.) Type 1-with jagged top/bottom cut, with "stamped" image. Obviously the Shea card isn't numberred, but it came from the collection of W501's that I spoke of, and that was his # in W501.


2.) Type 2-identical to E121's only with no advertising on back.


Edited to note that both images were scanned using the exact same resolution. They aren't great scans but you can tell the difference in quality of the images a fair amount.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Larry

W575-1 has a lighter strike in the actual picture, very hard to tell in any scan...The only W575-1 I have handled which were many have this grayish appearence...ACC actually puts W575-2 in same grouping which everyone should agree is nothing like the above mentioned sets..W501's are very similar to the grey W575-1 except for date and they are sometimes oversized..

The only group of Koester's we owned was the one from Mastronet so we are not stating we are experts...HOWEVER, all sets were shown to PSA, SGC and Bill Mastro himself had all 3 issues consigned to his auction from Nagy group and another group at the same time, there is NO comparison, Koesters are very slightly narrower, whiter and very sharp in appearence

I do not feel that the actual surface designates the difference alone, it is the way we found this group with the specific players that made the final determination..Meusel with OUTF. instead of OF, George Ruth(Boston Uniform) only availble in E121 series 80, NOT W575-1 while Tom Rogers only series 120 or W575-1, Alex Ferguson only in W575-1 etc..Rhett, you make very valid points but this fact cannot be disputed, all 15 cards were identical in all physical aspects, obtained at exact time, yet this group could not be all of these issues or in any other subset except Koester's according to any published checklists, you can trace the origin of this group back to Mastronet's original auction and PSA debacle of mislabeling which was done way before we owned this lot...The slightback damage to all 15 cards were all at top and all appeared to be rewmoved from same album, How could this be unless it was from IDENTICAL set? We can easily rule out E121, no reverse print and W575-1(gray or white) because there is no George Ruth(Boston Uniform which almost everyone has seen at some time on Mastronet or e bay, finally sold privately) only Babe Ruth...

We do not intend to mislead anyone, that group was 1921 Koesters, a true subset of W575-1 or E121, it does not matter, it is distinctive. If PSA agrees, SGC agrees and Mastronet agrees, that is good enough for me.

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Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)

I would also point out that when I bought the two in the scan above from Lew Lipset back when he had a mail order catalogue (I'll guess about 10 or 11 years ago) it was as "UNC Koestler Bread" cards that had been produced/distributed in honor of the first Yankees-Giants World Series showdown.

I might add that the cards' scarcity and the fact that they were as yet uncatalogued factor meant virtually nothing to me at the time --- I just wanted cards of HOFers Hoyt and Huggins (he had several others from both the Yankees and Giants available). Huggins I especially wanted because it pictured him as the Yankee's manager which was how I wanted him in my fledgling HOF set.. Lew did not have them priced especially high (for the time) and there was not alot of hype involved in the brief description of the set; they were simply in the catalogue, described and priced.

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Posted By: Larry

Brian...Great tidbit of info, this is what a forum should be, educational and interesting.........

Rhett, Your post was also very well respected and I admit that we only can learn from everyone's collective imput, I sent you some scans that you might use for future references...If anyone wants to actually see the group that we owned before it was relabeled by PSA & SGC, you can obtain it from this past year's Mastronet archives and I still have some scans referenced in my jpeg files.
I do feel and always felt that all these issues, with or without advertising, whether "W", "D" or "E" are very scarce, highly collectible and feature some amazing pictures of great players from an era that was incredible.
The fact that there is interest and debate only makes the hobby better, scarcity always has been supply vs demand and there is a limited supply of these issues.


One day, we will be able to recatagorize these subtle differences and update ACC for future generations,hopefully it will be soon.

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Posted By: fkw

I looked at the Matronet auction a couple days ago, the larger picture doesnt work now, all they have is a thumbnail picture. Does anyone have a scan of what they think is a Koester's Bread Frisch card. I have a W575-1 and E121 Id like to compare with it. Thanks

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Posted By: Scott

I received some cards in the late 80s from an 80 year old man. He gave them to me in a envelope and told me he remembered them coming from either candy or bread.Inside were about 30 or so cards and they all were NY Americans and NY Nationals.
In the group were about 6 Ruths,4 Huggins,3 or 4 McGraws, and a couple of the following players: Stock,Shea and Sallee.He told me if I sold them for him he would allow me to keep one of every player represented.

Now keep this in mind-I was about 22 years old and knew nothing about vintage cards-I knew about 50, 60 and 70 topps.I collected and read the Beckett magazine.I took the cards to a couple local card shops in the Baltimore area and was offered 400 to 800 dollars for the group of cards. I had already pulled the best quality player for my own collection.I decided to wait a month or so because a show was coming to Columbia Md and a guy name "Mr.Mint" was going to be there.At the show he was very skeptical of the cards because they were in such nice condition-he took the cards and showed a couple other dealers and when he came back to the c table and started throwing down 100 dollar bills -100,200,300,400 and so on-he was loud and a crowd grew around-he slapped down 2000 dollars-I said we have not agreed upon a price-he slapped down 4 more hundred dollar bills-I picked up the stack and said Thanks and walked away.
I was so young and nervous-my hands where sweating-i had never seen money like that before-I was working driving a truck and finishing my senior year in college.
The old man was very happy with the money and I was happy to add these 6 cards to my collection.Today he/I probably could have gotten ten times that amount!
For what it is worth I believe all the cards I owned and sold were Koester Bread cards-Koester had a bread plant (bakery) in Baltimore,the old man said he got them from bread or candy,and the group and had NYnationals and Americans-Also the Ruth was "George" not "Babe".

I recently bought a card at a show of a blank back NY National player and the card stock was so much thinner than the ones I own-this must be a W-575.