Colgan Proofs/Squares

[DixieBaseball]

I received a few private emails regarding the post, and one individual has maybe a dozen or so duplicates and the 2009 SCD only list 49 known players but according to another person, there may be closer to 60-80 different players known or even more. (We need to start a Ted Z type checklist and keep it open-ended for future expansion) These Colgan Square's are definitely rare and perhaps my guess at this point is there is anywhere from 1-5 examples of any of the known players. (Purely a guess, until more research is done - I would bet it is more like 2-3 on average with some lucky folks out there owning maybe the only example) We need to shake some trees.

[oaks1912]

I'm aware of 4 cards in the set which have reversed images from their E-254 counterpart.... Bridwell, Brockett, Daubert, Parent ....... Another quirk of the set. The Pirates players are indicated as "Pittsburg" on the squares, even though they may indicate "Pittsburgh" on the E-254....

[DixieBaseball]

Thanks Mark for the input - (I believe the last we spoke was the Chicago National-Good to hear from you again!) That info is helpful. The quirk's are the only thing that separates this from the Colgan's images, so maybe this info will be helpful. I still scratch my head why Memphis ? If we ever find out who put these out, that question will get answered, I bet. Just strange that 1 southern league team was put out and 3 players from it. Maybe we should concentrate on the Memphis players not featured in the squares, but are featured in the E254's. Crandall, Wauner... ?? Was Wauner & Crandall released at different times from Babb, Bauerwald, and Daubert ?

[nolemmings]

According to Baseballreference.com, both Wauner (really Wanner) and Crandall did not join Memphis until 1910, which of course is consistent with the premise that these square cards are tied to 1909.

[FrankWakefield]

Not 'tied'. Such a card could be made this year, a century later.

[nolemmings]

It's a premise, Frank. Refute it.

[FrankWakefield]

A premise based on what?

All you can tell is that the card was made after a certain event. You can want it to be contemporaneous with the event, but that doesn't make it so. And you're fooling yourself, and others to insist that it is otherwise.

[nolemmings]

Fair enough Frank. It's a postdated issue, possibly issued as an Upper Deck Commemorative issued circa a century later--I expect Willie Mays to be part of the set. Or its an Autosales release years after it acquired Colgans, because you want it to be. My only point about the Memphis players is that they played there in 1910, which is consistent with my prior posts. You're right, there's no premise. It's my theory, not premise, which theory you can shove up your ass.

[FrankWakefield]

Well at least you have some passion about these old cards. I admire that.

[millerhouse]

To all,

I hate to throw a monkey wrench into the dating party for this issue, but how do you explain the Harry Davis card with Cleveland, which was sold in the November 2009 Goodwin auction (Lot 251)? Davis played from about 1901 to 1911 with the A's, and then managed Cleveland in 1912, although he left that post with only about a fifth of the season remaining.

Indeed, the only other player change in the set is Harry Lord (who can be found issued with Chicago and with Boston captions). Neither of these cards is currently checklisted in the SCD Standard Catalog. My recollection is that Lord switched teams in 1910, though I'm certain someone can check verify this date.

Millerhouse

[millerhouse]

To all,

As has been alluded to in prior posts, the Standard Catalog checklist for these is woefully missing a number of cards, like the Lords mentioned in my prior post and one of the two Davises (Philadelphia and Cleveland).

What's amazing to me is that this set was first checklisted, much more completely, by Richard Egan in his seminal work on Candy and Gum cards, issued around 1969/1970. Why the SCD checklister over these many years has managed to ignore Egan's listing is a mystery. In any event, if an old-timer out there could pull out a copy of Egan's work, my guess is that maybe twenty-five or so of these squares would be added to the Standard Catalog list.

By the way, I'm also the guy, mentioned above, with about a dozen duplicates from this set, which includes dupes of Harry Coveleski, Ed Konetchy, Dode Paskert, Billy Purtell and George Stone, none of which appears in the Standard Catalog.

Millerhouse

[FrankWakefield]

Millerhouse,

I mention 1912 in post #46. I think new Colgans cards were being developed or made about then. The little round cards cover a broader date than that covered by the white border tobacco cards, ie T206.

[DixieBaseball]

Millerhouse - Thanks for the input and getting involved. This is valuable information that would make the Daubert-Memphis 09 theory yield to the Davis theory (Can go forward with dated production, but can't go back, ie Davis 1912, Daubert 1909) I think your explanation simply squashes the 1909 theory. Did someone mention that Eagen's notes were included in Bert Sugar's 1977 first edition sports card book or did I dream that? We need to get Eagan's checklist in on this thread so we can forge ahead with discussion. Thanks Millerhouse for your info !

[FrankWakefield]

From Mr. Ricard Egan...

"Part 3: An anonymous paper issue, not yet cataloged, has been located which uses photos from E-254. The titles of the cards have been removed and a printed title added in the bottom obverse. The photos are definately from E-254 as some are known with lettering that covered the photo in place although the background and associated lettering has been removed. The following players are known, in some cases the photos have been reversed, and incorrected spellings corrected." (sic)

1. AMES, New York Nat'l.
2. BABB, Memphis
3. BAERWALD, Memphis
4. BAILEY, St. Louis Am. L.
5. BAKER, Phila. Am. L.
6. BATES, Phila. Nat'l L.
7. BEAUMONT, Boston Nat'l L.
8. BECKER, Boston Nat'l L.
9. BRIDWELL, New York Nat'l L. (rev.)
10. BROCKETT, New York Am. L. (rev.)
11. BURCH, Brooklyn
12. BUSH, Detroit
13. CAMNITZ, Pittsburgh
14. CHANCE, Chicago Nat'l. L.
15. CHASE, New York Am. L.
16. CLARKE, Pittsburgh
17. COBB, Detroit
18. COLLINS, Phila. Am. L.
19. COVELESKI, Cincinnati
20. CRISS, St. Louis Am. L.
21. DAUBERT, Memphis (rev)
22. DAVIS, Phila. Am. L.
23. DEMMETT, New York, Am. L.
24. DEVLIN, New York, Am. L.
25. DOUGHTERTY, Chicago Am. L.
26. ELBERFIELD, New York Am. L.
27. ENGLE, New York Am. L.
28. EVANS, St. Louis, Nat'l L.
29. EVERS, Chicago, Nat'l L.
30. GASPAR, Cincinnati
31. GETZ, Boston Nat'l L.
32. GIBSON Pittsburgh
33. HARTSELL, Phila. Am. L.
34. HARTZELL, St. Louis Am. L.
35. HEWLEY, Rochester
36. HOOPER, Boston Am. L.
37. JENNINGS, Detroit
38. Joss, Cleveland
39. KNABE, Phila. Nat'l L.
40. KNIGHT, New York Am. L.
41. KONETCHY, St. Louis Nat'l L.
42. LAFITTE, Rochester
43. LANGE, Chicago Amer. L.
44. LEACH, Pittsburgh
45. LELIVELT, Detroit
46. LORD, Boston
47. LUDWIG, Milwaukee
48. MADDOX, Pittsburgh
49. McINTYRE, Detroit
50. MILLER, Pittsburgh
51. MITCHELL, Cincinnati
52. MULLER, Detroit
53. MURPHY, Phila. Am. L.
54. PARENT, Chicago Am. L.
55. PASKERT, Cincinnati
56, PEITZ, Louisvile
57. PFEISTER, Chicago Nat'l L.
58. PHILLIPE, Pittsburgh
59. PURTELL, Chicago Am. L.
60. RAYMOND, New York Nat'l L.
61. RUCKER, Brooklyn
62. SCHARDT, Milwaukee
63. SEYMOUR, New York Nat'l L.
64. SNODGRASS, New York Nat'l L.
65. SPADE, Cincinnati
66. STEINFELDT, Chicago Nat'l L.
67. STONE, St. Louis Am. L.
68. Sullivan, Louisville
69. SUMMERS, Detroit
70. UNGLAUB, Washington Am. L.
71. WADDELL, St. Louis Am. L.
72. WAGNER, Pittsburgh
73. WHITE, Buffalo
74. WILSON, Pittsburgh
75. WILTSE, New York Nat'l L.
76. WOODS, Buffalo
77. ZIMMERMAN, Chicago Nat'l L.

On the Paskert card one can see the "CIA" that is printed on the collar but the remainder is removed.

All cards compared are same picture."

THAT, is what is in Mr. Egan's Handbook. It is at the end of his list XXVII.

I incorrectly listed Parent as with Pittsburgh, Egan shows him with Chicago Am. L., I've made that correction. 1-5-11 11am.

[FrankWakefield]

Bill Schardt was with Milwaukee only one season, 1910. Bill Ludwig was there for 1910 and part of 1911. Ed Laffite was with Rochester only for the 1910 season. That makes 1909 or earlier an extremely unlikely date for these square cards, nay impossible date for the cards.

So it seems that whoever supplied photographs and or cards to Colgans, and then AutoSales as they continued with the Colgans line, that this supplier later provided these square cards to someone, and this would have occurred AFTER the commencement of issue/distribution of E254s in 1909. Mr. Egan's comment about the letters on Paskert's shirt suggest that the round Colgans cards came first. Maybe the supplier/printer had a deal where they were obligated to supply round cards only to Colgans and their successor. So what they next sent out were these square cards.

And Egan's List notes 3 of the square cards having reversed images from the Colgans issue.

[nolemmings]

Not so fast.

I have seen nothing to prove that these cards could not have been printed in 1909, and I maintain that they were, perhaps more than any other year. All I have been shown is that one player could not have been produced until 1912 and a few others are shown with their 1910 teams. Now we know that t206, p2 pins and px7 were all produced over a span of years in the 1909-1912 range (depending on set), and there is nothing to suggest that the same could not be said for these square cards. More importantly, Colgans themselves were issued over a period of these years, with new cards added and team changes made. Under these circumstances, I believe it is a fallacy to say that because one was made in 1912 they all must have been, just as it is to say that because some were made after 1909 it is impossible for any to have been made that year.

Millerhouse says Harry Lord has a square for both Boston and Chicago, so changes were apparently made to these cards when teams changed in 1910. Also, Egan shows Harry Davis with Philly, and the Goodwin auction has him on Cleveland, so there’s another example of a square with different teams. Yet from Egans list are 13 players who had more than one e254; i.e., cards where team changes were made. Of these, all but one is depicted on his square card with the team he played on in 1909. Two, Demmitt and Elberfeld, were on different teams in1909 and 1910, and have different Colgan e254s. Each of these has a square card showing the 1909 team. Rube Waddell has three different e254s, two which show team changes from 1911, yet his square card shows him with his 1909-10 team. More than another dozen others from Egan’s list had an e254 and then an e270, the latter reflecting team changes, yet none appear on square cards for anything other than the original team. Now why would the manufacturer take the time to update Davis and Lord on these squares but none of the others? Better yet, why, if the entire kaboodle was not printed or issued until 1912 or later would the manufacturer not take the time to make obvious corrections which it knew about from e254 and e270? And where, please, is there ANY evidence that Autosales had anything to do with this? It appears that maybe one square card reflects a name/team combination that might have existed after they acquired Colgans. How does that equate to some belief that they had control of all these square cards and decided to allow distribution by someone else later on? Many many of these images are Horner portraits, and appear in other card sets or Spalding/Reach guides. Why should we believe that Autosales had some sort of exclusivity on who got to use these images, when there is evidence that they were used elsewhere and often?

It would be nice if someone were to track the five year span when Colgans were made, i.e. 1909-1913, for each player in the square card set. From there it could be determined the first year a particular square could have been printed, not counting for errors (and there are some–Jeremy, did you know the two B’Ham players on e254, who you wondered about as not having squares, NEVER played for Birmingham; so too Egan apparently lists Parent for Pittsburgh where he never played) I do this for some sets I collect but have no stake here. Jeremy, wanna step up?

[DixieBaseball]

Todd - It's an open discussion and you make a compelling case as well. I value all of the discussion thus far and the truth is none of us know, but can only surmise the possibilities. Your points are taken and at this point it is conceivable these squares were over a span of years. I love the arguments both ways, and while I think the 1912 argument appears obvious, I would not go as far as tossing the Autosales angle into this. At this point all we know is these are Unknown Player Squares with image's used on Colgan's. I think the likelihood these are some derivative of Colgan's or at least a competitor is more likely than not. With that being said, I would not bet on it. (How's that for riding the fence)

[FrankWakefield]

I don't necessarily disagree with that. Seems to me some of these square things could have been made in 1909. And some were definitely in 1910 and later.

But back there where you said that the square cards are 'tied' to 1909, that just isn't so.

I thought the goal here was to show that these square cards weren't predecessors to the Colgans Chips cards. Nothing in what Egan wrote suggests that the square cards were proofs or predecessors.

I've contemplated the 'Pittsburg' vs 'Pittsburgh' thing. It was "Pittsburg" from about 1890 to about 1911. Then it reverted to "Pittsburgh". We know the white border and brown border tobacco cards just have the "g" on the end. What do you guys thing about that?