Real Fred Clarke Photo?

[GoCubsGo32]

Please tell me this wasn't real....or else someone got a great deal!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261413003424...torefresh=true

[prewarsports]

Looks like a newspaper or spalding guide page glued to a mount. WAY too grainy.

[horzverti]

Nope, you got the deal by missing this one.

[GoCubsGo32]

Thanks guys! I can sleep better tonight

[fossilcards]

Ok I may be the guy that got the bad deal. I won the auction and received it today. The "photo" is not from the Spalding guides but appears to be made of silk. I compared it to one of my S74 and under a loop, it appears to be the same material, although I am by no means a textile expert. Has anyone heard of these type of photographs being printed on silk?? I've seen this portrait of Fred Clarke on early programs and other "paper" items but I've never seen anything printed on silk like this. I've never heard of fakes either so I'm really lost here...any help is much appreciated.

[prewarsports]

Could you post come better pictures of it?

[Yi]

How about this photo of Fred Clarke? Any comments?

[drcy]

No comment on the eBay Clarke photo, but, as far as silk texture goes, old photo paper did come in different textures. Photos were usually smooth and glossy, but could come in matte and textured. The image texture may sometimes be cloth-like.

On the eBay Clarke photo specifically, it's something I'd have to see in person before I made a formal opinion on it. It's just speculation for me looking at the small eBay pictures. To me, it looks more like a ink print rather than real photo, but, again, I'm just looking at the small pictures. As the S74s and many other period cloth collectables demonstrate, they could and did make ink prints on cloth back then.

One thing is the seller mentions foxing. If there is genuine foxing on the silk or photo or whatever it is itself, that's a strong indication of old age.

[fossilcards]

The medium itself seems to be actual silk (or other material) not so much a textured paper. Again, comparing to a silk S74, they both exhibit the same light reflecting characteristics.

[drcy]

It's still hard to tell from the bigger image. But I can tell you that if it's a modern computer print, it would have a multi-color dot pattern under a microscope. Also, a black light will help identify if it's made out of modern material.

The picture of Clarke could be vintage, but, if so, I don't know where it comes from. It looks more like vintage in your bigger picture than in the small eBay image. If it is real S74-like cloth, I've never heard of a modern forgery on such material. I don't know why someone would use silk to make such a forgery. If it's S74-like cloth and has genuine foxing on it, I would assume it's vintage. Though some may say the next question is if the picture and the mount/frame are original to each other.

But, without having it in hand, its still idle speculation for me, and I'll leave it at that.

[fossilcards]

Thanks everyone for their input. It is indeed a mystery to me. I can take it to a friend with a microscope to check. I do have a black light. What would be an indicator of modern material?

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by drcy

...
The picture of Clarke could be vintage, but, if so, I don't know where it comes from.
...

The photo is ca. 1910. It is the same image used on Clarke's M116 card.

[drcy]

If it fluoresces very bright white or very bright white with a bluish tinge like a piece of today's computer paper, it's modern material. Use a piece of today's computer paper or recent baseball card for comparison. If it doesn't, that doesn't prove it Pre-War, but much to most modern white cloth and paper fluoresce very brightly. Modern (post WWII) white cloth and paper commonly has fluorescing chemicals added during manufacturing, that's why it fluoresces so brightly under blackight. That's why our white clothes and even white shoelaces glow in the dark under Halloween party blacklights. The chemicals are intentionally added to white materials to make them appear brighter in sunlight, as sunlight contains ultraviolet rays.

A blacklight is one of the quickest ways to identify many modern reprints and counterfeits of antique cards, posters, postcards, photos and other paper collectibles.

[fossilcards]

Sure enough, it glows...so it's modern silk or some other material. Someone went to a lot of trouble to make a fake like this...well I guess it's time to fight it through eBay.

Thanks for all the help and education!