Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

So moving forward, cover-ups, corruption and deceit should be the hobby norm?

It's like a vape store saying they're sticking by their product because their business model depends on it. Never mind the fact that people are now dying. Sad state of affairs.

where all these lawsuits if it was so bad. People said to me give it time....still no lawsuits.....nothing to see here


--show me the CarDfax'

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

where all these lawsuits if it was so bad. People said to me give it time....still no lawsuits.....nothing to see here


--show me the CarDfax'

You know you could just make this a signature.

Or, if it's allowed just have some college kid write a bot that would randomly post it say once a week.

[Leon]

Exactly.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the case is still being worked on. I expect more legal (authorities) issues for the culprits than I do personal lawsuits, though there still could be some.

Originally Posted by steve B

You know you could just make this a signature.

Or, if it's allowed just have some college kid write a bot that would randomly post it say once a week.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

Exactly.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the case is still being worked on. I expect more legal (authorities) issues for the culprits than I do personal lawsuits, though there still could be some.

Still everyone said give it time for the personal lawsuits and its been more than enough time now. Its actually quite normal for personal lawsuits to go first and not the criminal authority first. Not sure what happened with Mastro if he was sued personally but most times when money is lost by a victim, whether ponzi scheme or whatever theres a lawsuit way before the criminal action as its much easier route. It would appear there are not many 'victim's (people sue for anything and doesnt appear to a victim willing to sue)

--show me the carDfax

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=56

The 10s just keep coming. Something, IMO, is very wrong here.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=56

The 10s just keep coming. Something, IMO, is very wrong here.

C'mon Peter, it's just some savvy collectors and businessmen who have a keen eye for bumpworthy cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

C'mon Peter, it's just some savvy collectors and businessmen who have a keen eye for bumpworthy cards.

Some are clearly trimmed. Look at the Gaylord Perry for example. And there's a second issue here, even indulging the assumption that some of these cards are not trimmed, the number of vintage 10s within one sub is staggering and dramatically out of line with the experience of other long-time dealers, who get a vintage 10 once in a blue moon even on virgin high grade material, and who have to resubmit constantly to get cards into their right holders. Something is not sitting right with me.

[RichardSimon]

"resubmit constantly to get cards into their right holders"

Wow, that is some statement about the state of card grading.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

"resubmit constantly to get cards into their right holders"

Wow, that is some statement about the state of card grading.

Yep, but that's how it is for the common man/non-inside dealer. And what's really astonishing is the variance in grades a given card can receive on its journey.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yep, but that's how it is for the common man/non-inside dealer. And what's really astonishing is the variance in grades a given card can receive on its journey.

To say it is fluid would be an understatement.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Some are clearly trimmed. Look at the Gaylord Perry for example. And there's a second issue here, even indulging the assumption that some of these cards are not trimmed, the number of vintage 10s within one sub is staggering and dramatically out of line with the experience of other long-time dealers, who get a vintage 10 once in a blue moon even on virgin high grade material, and who have to resubmit constantly to get cards into their right holders. Something is not sitting right with me.

Clearly I forgot to use the sarcasm font.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Clearly I forgot to use the sarcasm font.

Oh I got it, I was just elaborating.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Here is my question for anyone who really believes that PSA is corrupt: what are you doing about it?
--Still submitting cards?
--Still selling PSA product?
--Still collecting PSA product?
--Still have a PSA Collectors Club membership?
--Still have PSA registry sets?

Why not start to take a stand by resigning your PSA CC membership and deleting your registry sets? Or start a public boycott of PSA services and products? Complaining on a chat board about this purportedly corrupt entity isn't principled in and of itself, it is just whining.

AAAAAAGREED. I don't do any of those things...other than the whining of course.

I find it a fascinating testament on the human condition.

Collectors on this board don't want to hear about what they should do. They want to collect what they love so they can Continue to get their teeth handed to them by a billion dollar corrupt industry.

Yes, fascinating indeed.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

"resubmit constantly to get cards into their right holders"

Wow, that is some statement about the state of card grading.

I mean, have you ever heard of people being so damned MORONIC?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...315750&page=56

The 10s just keep coming. Something, IMO, is very wrong here.

A scam? The hell you say...

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Sometimes feel like I'm the only person who has never resubmitted a card. Silly me I thought the grade was the grade was the grade...

[Johnny630]

I hope microtrimming never ever becomes acceptable....
Does PSA even look at edges or grain of a cards borders ??
Or is that biased on whom is submitting the cards?

[perezfan]

The bigger question is why people put so much faith in what the self-appointed experts say? Especially since they've proven time and again that they can't detect alteration. And why such huge premiums are paid for slab numbers that are at best variable, and subject to change on a whim.

Other than the money/greed/ego aspect, I will never understand this segment of collecting.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The bigger question is why people put so much faith in what the self-appointed experts say? Especially since they've proven time and again that they can't detect alteration. And why such huge premiums are paid for slab numbers that are at best variable, and subject to change on a whim.

Other than the money/greed/ego aspect, I will never understand this segment of collecting.

Agree !!

I believe the Only Reason People Put So Much Faith in PSA is their belief that the card will sell for the most in a PSA holder. Until that belief becomes Fiction I sadly think the insanities will continue.

[HRBAKER]

"Don't bite the hand."

[al032184]

Speaking only to the vaping "crisis", the big issue there is counterfeit vaping cartridges. People make these black market cartridges and sell them as legitimate brand name cartridges. These counterfeit cartridges contain harmful substances that give the cartridges an aesthetically pleasing look. There is no real crisis when it comes to legitimate products. Just saying..

[drcy]

Originally Posted by al032184

Speaking only to the vaping "crisis", the big issue there is counterfeit vaping cartridges. People make these black market cartridges and sell them as legitimate brand name cartridges. These counterfeit cartridges contain harmful substances that give the cartridges an aesthetically pleasing look. There is no real crisis when it comes to legitimate products. Just saying..

Yes, seven people sick doesn't come across as a crisis. I suspect more people got sick and died eating breakfast cereal last year.

[ALBB]

Count Chocula , Boo Berry

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by al032184

Speaking only to the vaping "crisis", the big issue there is counterfeit vaping cartridges. People make these black market cartridges and sell them as legitimate brand name cartridges. These counterfeit cartridges contain harmful substances that give the cartridges an aesthetically pleasing look. There is no real crisis when it comes to legitimate products. Just saying..

so you've verified that of the 805 and counting people that have gotten ill or died related to vaping all are related to counterfeit rather than brand name cartridges? a lot of pulmonologists would disagree with you. do you vape or in some way benefit from the vaping industry?

[swarmee]

Can you guys take this off-topic into a different thread?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by griffon512

so you've verified that of the 805 and counting people that have died related to vaping all are related to counterfeit rather than brand name cartridges? a lot of pulmonologists would disagree with you. do you vape or in some way benefit from the vaping industry?

There are lawsuits going on with vaping..... no need to wait to see how it plays out 2 years from now and what choice do you have but to wait years..

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

There are lawsuits going on with vaping..... no need to wait to see how it plays out 2 years from now and what choice do you have but to wait years..

I haven't heard of any fatalities resulting from altered/overgraded baseball cards yet?

[irv]

Originally Posted by griffon512

so you've verified that of the 805 and counting people that have died related to vaping all are related to counterfeit rather than brand name cartridges? a lot of pulmonologists would disagree with you. do you vape or in some way benefit from the vaping industry?

https://time.com/5688229/cdc-thc-vaping-deaths/

[griffon512]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Can you guys take this off-topic into a different thread?

you are right -- we should keep this on topic from this point on. didn't want an earlier post to not get a response.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I haven't heard of any fatalities resulting from altered/overgraded baseball cards yet?

so there are never any lawsuits for anything other than if there are fatalities...

altered cards involve money, you are right nobody ever sues or no crime occurs because of money....

[Peter_Spaeth]

.

[Johnny630]

To me the market or lack of buyers is what will Stop or Slow down the fraud/manipulation. By now If people still don’t get it they never will.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by griffon512

so you've verified that of the 805 and counting people that have gotten ill or died related to vaping all are related to counterfeit rather than brand name cartridges? a lot of pulmonologists would disagree with you. do you vape or in some way benefit from the vaping industry?

I believe the "pesticide pens" are not tested at the very least making people sick. The ones at the store by me are at least lab tested so there are no pesticides. They are all fake.

Maybe we should ban cigarettes? A few more than 805 have gotten ill or died from those. More like 500,000 confirmed deaths.....EVERY YEAR. Verify that.

Still, there are fake cards in slabs everywhere. Just look at your own collection and half are fake.

[griffon512]

there's plenty of alterations out there but I don't agree that half of collections out there are fake. if you truly believe that, pm me your vintage card collection in slabs and I'll buy it from you for 55% of market value. that would be a good deal since it's only worth half of market value if half are fake. I don't understand the point of continuing in the hobby and continuing on the message board if you hate the hobby (you've stated this in the past) and think half the cards are fake. Why not do yourself a favor and get out of the hobby altogether?

[perezfan]

It’s probably a little more complicated than that. A complex love/hate relationship...

Kind of like a Love for the hobby, but hatred for those who have made it be all about money, greed, ego, ripping people off, favoritism, denial, turning a blind eye and shareholder profits.

Very difficult to completely abandon something you’ve loved and poured your heart into for many years/decades.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

so there are never any lawsuits for anything other than if there are fatalities...

altered cards involve money, you are right nobody ever sues or no crime occurs because of money....

You’re a civil lawyer and you’ve been beating the drums for months about suing PSA. Surely you must have a bunch of clients by now, no? After all who would potential litigants go to but you? When I was talking about Mastro’s fraud I had a number of Net 54 members who hired me to go after Mastro and his co-conspirators and multiple people got six figures back from them. So how many have you signed up?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Without someone with inside knowledge willing to break ranks with the machine, nothing in the public domain is going to help. It's a joke -- all the shit that's been exposed and the stock is way up and the submission queue has never been longer. My friend can't even get a card reholdered for me after THREE months. And so far, no one on the inside is breaking ranks, they're too busy feeding at the trough. PSA has it all figured out. Give Joe credit. The brand he built/solidified looks like it can withstand a nuclear attack.

Will law enforcement make a difference? We'll see.

That's a very good assessment of the situation and it is maddening that PSA has not even made a public gesture to attempt to minimize or curtail the number of doctored cards being holdered, but rather it's just business as usual. I regard their silence as an admission that they can't detect altered cards and have no interest in spending money and time on technology to address the problem. Why should they? They're making money hand over fist and why cut into the profits?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You’re a civil lawyer and you’ve been beating the drums for months about suing PSA. Surely you must have a bunch of clients by now, no? After all who would potential litigants go to but you? When I was talking about Mastro’s fraud I had a number of Net 54 members who hired me to go after Mastro and his co-conspirators and multiple people got six figures back from them. So how many have you signed up?

I would like to go after PSA, but I suspect "They made all the cards I want more expensive" isn't going to really work to show I have any actual damages....Especially since they've made the cards I do own more expensive as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

That's a very good assessment of the situation and it is maddening that PSA has not even made a public gesture to attempt to minimize or curtail the number of doctored cards being holdered, but rather it's just business as usual. I regard their silence as an admission that they can't detect altered cards and have no interest in spending money and time on technology to address the problem. Why should they? They're making money hand over fist and why cut into the profits?

Or they can detect them, but choose not to because it's what the business is built on.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You’re a civil lawyer and you’ve been beating the drums for months about suing PSA. Surely you must have a bunch of clients by now, no? After all who would potential litigants go to but you? When I was talking about Mastro’s fraud I had a number of Net 54 members who hired me to go after Mastro and his co-conspirators and multiple people got six figures back from them. So how many have you signed up?

My point is that there is nothing wrong really (and not to the extent of a mass issue ) because there are no lawsuits. Mastro fraud i agree there was something going on and thats why there were many people filing lawsuits/claims for lots of money

In this trimming issue there are no lawsuits so all of these complaining on the board seems odd considering there are no lawsuits. If it was such a big deal why arent there lawsuits. It appears everyone is getting paid back and/or happy is my point. Its been a long enough wait at this point for something to have happened. You are making my point. Thanks

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

My point is that there is nothing wrong really (and not to the extent of a mass issue ) because there are no lawsuits. Mastro fraud i agree there was something going on and thats why there were many people filing lawsuits/claims for lots of money

In this trimming issue there are no lawsuits so all of these complaining on the board seems odd considering there are no lawsuits. If it was such a big deal why arent there lawsuits. It appears everyone is getting paid back and/or happy is my point. Its been a long enough wait at this point for something to have happened. You are making my point. Thanks

There was one lawsuit against Mastro and it was a countersuit -- I know because I brought it. And many miserable victims, many of whom got paid back without having to resort to litigation. This is how it works sometimes, understood at least by most competent lawyers.

As for my point, the reason you aren't getting any calls from any potential litigants against PSA is, well, I think we both know. Even the second biggest dullard on the board understands.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

There was one lawsuit against Mastro and it was a countersuit -- I know because I brought it. And many miserable victims, many of whom got paid back without having to resort to litigation. This is how it works sometimes, understood at least by most competent lawyers.

As for my point, the reason you aren't getting any calls from any potential litigants against PSA is, well, I think we both know. Even the second biggest dullard on the board understands.

the point is that nobody is getting any calls to file suit. If this is an earth shattering deal, to have zero lawsuits at this point says something is all i am saying. With Mastro there was at least one lawsuit......like i said with the trimming issue with PSA, people must be happy with the outcome/getting paid back/satisfied, again you prove my point...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

the point is that nobody is getting any calls to file suit. If this is an earth shattering deal, to have zero lawsuits at this point says something is all i am saying. With Mastro there was at least one lawsuit......like i said with the trimming issue with PSA, people must be happy with the outcome/getting paid back/satisfied, again you prove my point...

I’m not proving your point at all except for the one on top of your head. Just because strip mall lawyers don’t get calls to go after PSA doesn’t mean other lawyers aren’t. There was only one lawsuit brought against Mastro — does that mean that all his victims were otherwise happy? Your logic or lack thereof is the reason why you have no knowledge of potential litigants lining up against PSA. Just admit it: you know nothing firsthand about any of the legal issues here.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I'm not happy with any of this crap, but I have no grounds for filing any lawsuits against anyone. So just because there are no lawsuits doesn't mean everyone is happy. I'm quite the opposite as happy. And a lot of other people are just an unhappy about the whole thing as I am. To make the argument that no lawsuits means everyone is happy is just unreal. And every time this argument is made it makes for an easy target for ridicule.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I'm not happy with any of this crap, but I have no grounds for filing any lawsuits against anyone. So just because there are no lawsuits doesn't mean everyone is happy. I'm quite the opposite as happy. And a lot of other people are just an unhappy about the whole thing as I am. To make the argument that no lawsuits means everyone is happy is just unreal. And every time this argument is made it makes for an easy target for ridicule.

Same here... extremely discontent and saddened about the state of the hobby, or business, or whatever the hell it is now...

But although I am not personally filing any lawsuits, who knows how many other defrauded people are preparing for litigation. This is the infancy stage. Many victims have not yet become aware of the situation, but they very well might, in due time.

PSA wants everyone to go back to the sellers for refunds. But what if the tainted cards were bought months/years ago? What if the Dealer is no longer in business or is unreachable? What if the card was obtained via trade show, in which the seller has been long-forgotten?

The vast majority of us have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. Give it adequate time, for goodness' sake.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Same here... extremely discontent and saddened about the state of the hobby, or business, or whatever the hell it is now...

But although I am not personally filing any lawsuits, who knows how many other defrauded people are preparing for litigation. This is the infancy stage. Many victims have not yet become aware of the situation, but they very well might, in due time.

PSA wants everyone to go back to the sellers for refunds. But what if the tainted cards were bought months/years ago? What if the Dealer is no longer in business or is unreachable? What if the card was obtained via trade show, in which the seller has been long-forgotten?

The vast majority of us have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. Give it adequate time, for goodness' sake.

What if the dealer refuses to give a refund?

[Stampsfan]

Or what if the dealer bought it from another dealer? And so on. Are they supposed to follow this trail until you get to the person who had it graded from PSA? And then what?

Having PSA tell you to go back to the last seller is a cop out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

Or what if the dealer bought it from another dealer? And so on. Are they supposed to follow this trail until you get to the person who had it graded from PSA? And then what?

Having PSA tell you to go back to the last seller is a cop out.

I am sure the honest dealers of the world appreciate PSA trying to deflect responsibility onto them.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What if the dealer refuses to give a refund?

I was thinking the same thing. When is PSA going to accept any responsibility? I hope they're doing their own internal investigations on graders whom handled specific submissions from specific clients........

I ask myself this question, What exactly is the purpose of their services if they can't tell what is altered and what is not?

It's the allusion of when your card is graded it becomes instantly a prized commodity primed for registry sets and low pops......ALL B to THE S............

Keep Hush the Suckers Need Us and They Always Come Back....This Will Pass and We Will Prevail......

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I’m not proving your point at all except for the one on top of your head. Just because strip mall lawyers don’t get calls to go after PSA doesn’t mean other lawyers aren’t. There was only one lawsuit brought against Mastro — does that mean that all his victims were otherwise happy? Your logic or lack thereof is the reason why you have no knowledge of potential litigants lining up against PSA. Just admit it: you know nothing firsthand about any of the legal issues here.

Its interesting that almost every comment you make has an insult in it. We all know about people who find they have to belittle people.

I am making a point. There are no lawsuits. Only takes one major suit to help resolve other potential cases so having one lawsuit is a big deal versus zero.

There is no final answer that you have or I have as to why there arent any. We all have are viewpoints. I am free to make my own point and you are free to make your point.

Even people not in penthouse lawyer offices are free to make our points known. The fact you bother to reply to little ole me shows me something. I assume you will again respond with an nursery school insult and raise your dorsal fin but again you will feel the need to say something. Thats the funny thing.