Not again! This is why I have a problem with PWCC!! Sorry for the rant!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

I understand your statement completely. But to say people would rather spend big money with PWCC cause they’re “well known” and not some other party is as ridiculous as I’ll get out.

Everyone knows the PWCC shill bids their higher end auctions and rolls the dice somebody will come along and snag it. If not, they buy the card then consign it to a big name AH and the cycle begins.

snagging their own consignment can be pretty pricy if they are paying for their own card...eating 800 dollars etc would seem to eat into any future profit when sending it to another AH

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Ebay is just a venue...both I and PWCC sell on Ebay....for some reason, I truly believe we can have the EXACT same card....same grade....same centering, everything....99 times out of 100, the PWCC card will sell for more.

I think thats normal and not shocking at all and rather expected

I have 'won' items on ebay and all of the sudden the card is not available or not shipped etc. Much less of a chance of that on pwcc

Plus, there are sellers out there that shill their own cards and when they 'win' them on another of their accounts account they just cancel the sale and dont have to eat anything

At least theres a better chance with pwcc that the consignor will have to eat a 10% or so fee to win their own card versus a guy with 2 accounts selling his card on ebay.

Just for those 2 reasons i woudl think the same card on pwcc should go for more than the average joe account...plus a ton more reasons...like bulk shipping if you win several items etc.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Bobby, I don't know you other than from your posts on here, but it always seems like there is some drama involved with all of your transactions. Either every one of your cards sells too low, or something is lost then mysteriously appears, or whatever. Seems like a lot of drama around every situation.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe, potential buyers are aware of the drama which tends to follow you, and might shy away from your listings, to avoid getting sucked into a potential scenario? All it might take is one buyer to get soured and stay away, and maybe he would've caused the final price to be $900 instead of $730. Is it worth the posts complaining about things, to lose money on a sale?

Like I said, I don't recall any transactions with you and don't have any personal negative experience, but maybe pump the brakes a bit on the drama, as it certainly could have a negative impact by causing potential buyers to look elsewhere....

I have had good transactions with Bobby. His prices are good (too good probably if you ask him &#128513. He ships quickly, and communicates throughout the process. In addition, he runs group subs and puts in the time and energy to ensure everyone is satisfied.

Much of the stuff that he “complains about” is stuff that would frustrate me as well. He just states it better than I can. The world is full of bad guys and drama queens. He is definitely one of the good ones.

[VoodooChild]

I consigned a bunch of cards to PWCC including T206 PSA 2-3 commons which I paid $25-35 for. Those T206's consistently sold for $50 and even much as $75 at their auction. How do you explain that? I did not shill and there are BINs on eBay for less. So the only explanation is that people get caught up with their auction "experience".

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

I understand your statement completely. But to say people would rather spend big money with PWCC cause they’re “well known” and not some other party is as ridiculous as I’ll get out.

Everyone knows the PWCC shill bids their higher end auctions and rolls the dice somebody will come along and snag it. If not, they buy the card then consign it to a big name AH and the cycle begins.

Wait, are you claiming that the owners of PWCC have an organized scheme to place in house bids (a la Mastro) on the material consigned to them? That’s a pretty lofty accusation, dude. I have no doubt consigners are shilling their cards all day (I’ve seen evidence of it), but I’d be surprised that Brent et. al. would take that risk given the relative transparency of eBay bidding. But perhaps I misunderstood you.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by greco827

With PWCC and Probstein, or any large consignment firm for any hobby, they have three big things going for them. 1) They are reliable. It's not just some guy selling a card. 2) They do auctions, which combined with the reliability, draws people in. Who isn't watching a PSA 6 that's .99? They rely to some degree on the competitiveness of people bidding. 3) Listing a ton of cards at once is beneficial. It creates the one-stop-shop/"Oh, I get a discount on shipping for multiple items" effect. It works .... clearly.

Smaller sellers should just use a BIN with BO listing, know what you need to get, and go from there. If you bought a card for $400 more than you got for it, and you listed it shortly after getting it, then surely the idea was to make money from the go. Clearly auctions aren't working for you, so try something different. Unless you need to unload something quickly at the risk of doing so for less money, don't do an auction.

+1000

It's time to change your business model. A simple switch to BIN should yield positive results for you my friend.

[CrackaJackKid]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Wait, are you claiming that the owners of PWCC have an organized scheme to place in house bids (a la Mastro) on the material consigned to them? That’s a pretty lofty accusation, dude. I have no doubt consigners are shilling their cards all day (I’ve seen evidence of it), but I’d be surprised that Brent et. al. would take that risk given the relative transparency of eBay bidding. But perhaps I misunderstood you.

So all the bidders who have 90%+ bidding activity with PWCC and have 30-50+ bid retractions in the last 6 months are all consignors?

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

So all the bidders who have 90%+ bidding activity with PWCC and have 30-50+ bid retractions in the last 6 months are all consignors?

It’s tough to argue against conspiracy theories, but yes, it’s far more plausible that it’s a consignor doing that, not someone at PWCC. Just consider the math. If there’s a card selling for $50k, and a consignor successfully shills it to $55k, then the consignor’s incremental take is 90% of the $5k, or, $4500. PWCC might net 5% of that amount after their fees, or an incremental $250. The upside of PWCC perpetrating the shilling just isn’t there, unlike Mastro, whose take was probably 20-30% of the final value.

[CrackaJackKid]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

It’s tough to argue against conspiracy theories, but yes, it’s far more plausible that it’s a consignor doing that, not someone at PWCC. Just consider the math. If there’s a card selling for $50k, and a consignor successfully shills it to $55k, then the consignor’s incremental take is 90% of the $5k, or, $4500. PWCC might net 5% of that amount after their fees, or an incremental $250. The upside of PWCC perpetrating the shilling just isn’t there, unlike Mastro, whose take was probably 20-30% of the final value.

I’ve seen and other users have posted Auctions from PWCC were the top two or theee bidders are all 90% and 30-40 retractions. Coincidence? Heck, maybe 3 guys all went in on the card so they all decided to bid it up individually. Lol Come on man

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

I’ve seen and other users have posted Auctions from PWCC were the top two or theee bidders are all 90% and 30-40 retractions. Coincidence? Heck, maybe 3 guys all went in on the card so they all decided to bid it up individually. Lol Come on man

Well, shoot, sounds like you have the smoking gun right there. Congrats on cracking the case, Detective Rowbeartow!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

I’ve seen and other users have posted Auctions from PWCC were the top two or theee bidders are all 90% and 30-40 retractions. Coincidence? Heck, maybe 3 guys all went in on the card so they all decided to bid it up individually. Lol Come on man

I think you are as wrong as can be. And if I were you I would be careful about what you say publicly on this board. You are legally liable for what you (*or anyone for that matter) says on a public forum. Things said on THIS board have been used against the people saying it in court in the past.
IF someone said I shill bid my own auction they very well might get sued (and I have never sued anyone in my life). But if someone makes a statement like you did, I might make them prove it in court or pay a hefty fine and lawyer fees. And my guess is that if Brent wanted to he could sue your butt for what you said. I am no lawyer but that is my thought. That said, I totally agree that there seem to be some shenanigans with the amount of retractions done and the winning bids, sometimes. I think Brent and team are doing better than most to help curb it but there is a lot to still be done. Some of it needs to be on the ebay side.

[bobbyw8469]

Guys, I appreciate you letting me vent. I have decided to not sell high dollar cards on my own anymore (Anything over, say $300)....It is obvious that PWCC has the monopoly on Ebay baseball card auctions. They get the eyeballs. They get the bids. This will just be SINGLE cards, as I can't justify paying the high percentage commission they charge on sets (20% I believe). Correct me if I am wrong, but it also looks like their rates have gone up. If you can't beat them, join them.

[bobbyw8469]

Some of it needs to be on the ebay side.

Ebay needs to step up on A LOT of it!! I doubt they will though because it lines their pockets. That is why Ebay turns a blind eye towards sellers like Battlefield. For the record, I am 100% positive Brent, nor anyone on his team shill bids. They don't have to. I do believe most of the shenanigans are on the consignors. I can't speak on the altered card that was sold that got enhanced.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

I’ve seen and other users have posted Auctions from PWCC were the top two or theee bidders are all 90% and 30-40 retractions. Coincidence? Heck, maybe 3 guys all went in on the card so they all decided to bid it up individually. Lol Come on man

Brent has already been caught engaging in fraud in his auctions and I don't believe there's any question that shill bidding goes on in his auctions. Brent, I'm looking forward to your lawsuit and I'll be taking yours and Betsy's depositions myself if you wish to sue.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Brent has already been caught engaging in fraud in his auctions and I don't believe there's any question that shill bidding goes on in his auctions. Brent, I'm looking forward to your lawsuit and I'll be taking yours and Betsy's depositions myself if you wish to sue.

So you are saying specifically that Brent shilled his own auctions?

[CrackaJackKid]

Originally Posted by calvindog

brent has already been caught engaging in fraud in his auctions and i don't believe there's any question that shill bidding goes on in his auctions. Brent, i'm looking forward to your lawsuit and i'll be taking yours and betsy's depositions myself if you wish to sue.

+1000000000000000000

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

So you are saying specifically that Brent shilled his own auctions?

...And the sound of silence.................. hello darkness my old friend.....

[slipk1068]

That is not what he said which should be obvious to most intelligent people.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

That is not what he said which should be obvious to most intelligent people.

now THAT is funny!

[Snapolit1]

He didn't accuse Brent of shilling but fraud.

There was some anecdote a few months back with emails being posted about how Brent instructed some dude to place a bid for some reason. Can't remember the specifics and it was pretty convoluted. Sort of glad it didn't have the electrical charge to adhere to any brain cells. Perhaps that saga is what Jeff is referring.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

That is not what he said which should be obvious to most intelligent people.

Never mind, asked a rhetorical question.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

That is not what he said which should be obvious to most intelligent people.

Awesome post.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Awesome post.

Expected

[bigfish]

[QUOTE=calvindog;1719895]Brent has already been caught engaging in fraud in his auctions and I don't believe there's any question that shill bidding goes on in his auctions. Brent, I'm looking forward to your lawsuit and I'll be taking yours and Betsy's depositions myself if you wish to sue.


Outstanding

[bobbyw8469]

SUPER, SUPER easy flip for the buyer!! Jack it up by $200 and it sells IMMEDIATELY!!! Makes me never want to do another .99 cent auction ever again!! Just ship it off to PWCC since he gets sky high prices anyway!!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Still not sure why this bothers you. They are a bigger company and get more eyes on their auctions than us little guys. Shilling aside I would expect them to get higher prices than I do.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I can also tell you i had some of these t202 listed at a start price fo $120 with no takers...but then i'd list them again at 80 dollars and they would get bid to $150...

In ebays early days they did a study and discovered that auctions end up with higher prices, on average, when the auctions start at $0.99.

Even though I know this is true, I'm still hesitant to do that with my better items.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

In ebays early days they did a study and discovered that auctions end up with higher prices, on average, when the auctions start at $0.99.

Even though I know this is true, I'm still hesitant to do that with my better items.

In my case it wasn't true at all. He had not ONE, but TWO people willing to pay $900 for the card upon receipt (not sure what happened to the first buyer, but it obviously sold again less than 24 hours later). Meanwhile, I barely crack $700 with a .99 cent auction. Where were these buyers when the card was auctioned off? I will never list a $1,000 card ever again on my own.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

In my case it wasn't true at all. He had not ONE, but TWO people willing to pay $900 for the card upon receipt (not sure what happened to the first buyer, but it obviously sold again less than 24 hours later). Meanwhile, I barely crack $700 with a .99 cent auction. Where were these buyers when the card was auctioned off? I will never list a $1,000 card ever again on my own.

well since the cards at issue were under $1000 you are free to continue to auction that kind of card on your own..

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

well since the cards at issue were under $1000 you are free to continue to auction that kind of card on your own..

Dude you never have anything nice to add to anything. Start being nicer to people.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

Dude you never have anything nice to add to anything. Start being nicer to people.

Some people are just cynics....I get it.....He don't have to be nice to me....the hobby is big enough for all kinds of assholes :-p

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

In ebays early days they did a study and discovered that auctions end up with higher prices, on average, when the auctions start at $0.99.

Even though I know this is true, I'm still hesitant to do that with my better items.

Is this still true on eBay? I have been on eBay since very close to the beginning and it is definitely true about the first 10 years. Since then I only sell once in a while and have had horrible luck with $.99 starting bids the last 6-8 years. I am sure some of that is because I no longer have the great customer base I did in the beginning.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Is this still true on eBay? I have been on eBay since very close to the beginning and it is definitely true about the first 10 years. Since then I only sell once in a while and have had horrible luck with $.99 starting bids the last 6-8 years. I am sure some of that is because I no longer have the great customer base I did in the beginning.

I would say it is NOT true anymore. Unless you are Probstein or PWCC and run a .99 cent auction, you run the risk of your item selling poorly, especially if there is a small window of people interested in your item. Ebay has completely bungled their format for the past 8 years due to their attempt to copy Amazon. They were not content with being Ebay.

[Batpig]

I still don't understand being mad at pwcc for this. There are definitely reasons to dislike them, but if their hammer prices beat yours by that much, you could try, you know, having them sell your stuff.

[packs]

Speaking strictly in theoretical terms, one might say the auctions set unreachable precedent for other people and when I go to the negotiating table they might point to the sale in order to support an above market pricing.

[CMIZ5290]

This is beyond belief...PWCC, Probstein just keep on rolling along, laughing to the bank.... There have been threads in the last 7 or 10 years about these sellers with Ebay issues and ethical flaws, with no resolve, so what's the point? Jealousy? Just saying...They keep right on rocking....Let it die or find something to do about it...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

This is beyond belief...PWCC, Probstein just keep on rolling along. There have been threads in the last 7 or 8 years about these sellers with no resolve, so what's the point? Jealousy? Just saying...

Imagine them like drunk drivers. Most have done it 100's if not 1000's of times, them bam the PoPo are there with lights o flashing. Just saying.

[Pat R]

I'll give you a couple of reasons why PWCC and Probstein have a lot of
followers and high % bidders.

In the last few weeks I got emails on two cards from different sellers
that my bids had been canceled and the item was
no longer available. One of sellers has been listing 10-15 singles every
few days so when he listed the next group I sent him a message stating
that I would like to bid on some of his cards but he had canceled my
bid on the last one I had bid on. He did get back to me and said that he
had received an offer that he couldn't refuse but he has a large group
of cards that he will be listing over the next few weeks and to feel free
to bid with confidence. Since then he has listed several cards that I
would have bid on.

Yesterday a seller listed a low grade T206 with a $32.99 BIN or BO
it's a $20-$25 card so I sent him a $22 offer that he flat declined.
If he had come back with a $25 or $26 offer I would have bought
the card. I just looked up the last sale of the card in the same grade
and coincidently it was a PWCC auction and it sold for $23.73.

If more than one example of a card I'm looking for is listed at the
same time and one is in a PWCC or Probstein action that's the
one I would be bidding on every time.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I'll give you a couple of reasons why PWCC and Probstein have a lot of
followers and high % bidders.

In the last few weeks I got emails on two cards from different sellers
that my bids had been canceled and the item was
no longer available. One of sellers has been listing 10-15 singles every
few days so when he listed the next group I sent him a message stating
that I would like to bid on some of his cards but he had canceled my
bid on the last one I had bid on. He did get back to me and said that he
had received an offer that he couldn't refuse but he has a large group
of cards that he will be listing over the next few weeks and to feel free
to bid with confidence. Since then he has listed several cards that I
would have bid on.

Yesterday a seller listed a low grade T206 with a $32.99 BIN or BO
it's a $20-$25 card so I sent him a $22 offer that he flat declined.
If he had come back with a $25 or $26 offer I would have bought
the card. I just looked up the last sale of the card in the same grade
and coincidently it was a PWCC auction and it sold for $23.73.

If more than one example of a card I'm looking for is listed at the
same time and one is in a PWCC or Probstein action that's the
one I would be bidding on every time.

Couldn't agree more on the fact they do not cancel auctions to sell directly as being a huge plus. I know I had a seller on here do that to me and I will not buy or bid on their items ever again.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Couldn't agree more on the fact they do not cancel auctions to sell directly as being a huge plus. I know I had a seller on here do that to me and I will not buy or bid on their items ever again.

I am not the hater that some are, but we're setting the bar pretty low if the fact that they don't break one particular rule while, at the very least, being complicit in allowing others to be flouted, is enough to make them your exclusive ebay shopping destination. There are hundreds if not thousands of sellers, like myself, RobertW, Buythatcard, and many more that follow and enforce ALL the rules.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I am not the hater that some are, but we're setting the bar pretty low if the fact that they don't break one particular rule while, at the very least, being complicit in allowing others to be flouted, is enough to make them your exclusive ebay shopping destination. There are hundreds if not thousands of sellers, like myself, RobertW, Buythatcard, and many more that follow and enforce ALL the rules.

My post was more about the fact I trash those 2 sellers all the time. Figured I could at least give them props for doing one thing right. It is also something I feel very strongly about.

You are correct about there being great sellers on here and eBay. I do my best to do all my business with them. I know we(Scott/myself) have done one deal for sure and it was perfect.

[jfkheat]

I think that one of the main reasons PWCC and Probstein have so many bidders that have a high percent of bids with them is because they are one of the few eBay sellers that run true auctions. Most sellers either have high BIN listings or starting bids that are higher than the card is worth.
James

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I am not the hater that some are, but we're setting the bar pretty low if the fact that they don't break one particular rule while, at the very least, being complicit in allowing others to be flouted, is enough to make them your exclusive ebay shopping destination. There are hundreds if not thousands of sellers, like myself, RobertW, Buythatcard, and many more that follow and enforce ALL the rules.

I love this....I run .99 cent auctions as well.......but the mere fact that my EXACT same card sell for HUNDREDS more with them than it will with me is sickening. I always thought Ebay was supposed to level the playing field, as long as all other metrics were outstanding (ie, fast shipping time, great packaging, etc.).

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I love this....I run .99 cent auctions as well.......but the mere fact that my EXACT same card sell for HUNDREDS more with them than it will with me is sickening. I always thought Ebay was supposed to level the playing field, as long as all other metrics were outstanding (ie, fast shipping time, great packaging, etc.).

PWCC probably spends 100k+ on advertising a year. How much do you spend?
And no, I am not good with retractions, but as I look around on ebay, Probstein and PWCC are not any worse than many others. I think Ebay needs to forbid more than 1-2 retractions a year. That would stop a lot of the shenanigans....Just like auction houses have very strict rules against retractions, so should ebay.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Leon

PWCC probably spends 100k+ on advertising a year. How much do you spend?
And no, I am not good with retractions, but as I look around on ebay, Probstein and PWCC are not any worse than many others. I think Ebay needs to forbid more than 1-2 retractions a year. That would stop a lot of the shenanigans....Just like auction houses have very strict rules against retractions, so should ebay.

I made the same point earlier. I don't begrudge them making more then me, there are some legitimate reasons for that along with the illegitimate ones. Frankly I don't measure my success against other companies or I'd just dig a hole, hop in, and pull the dirt in over me. I measure success against myself, or my standards. Why bother looking at their results if you know it's gonna tilt you?

As for retractions I've had some interesting legal discussions on here about them. If you accept a bid you legally HAVE to accept a retraction. However if someone has retracted bids in the past you are under no obligation to continue accepting their bids. This is in the UCC and is the law of the land nationwide. You cannot contract away your UCC rights either, so even if an auction house makes you sign something saying you can't retract a bid it is non-binding. The only thing they can legally do is refuse to accept your bid in the first place.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I made the same point earlier. I don't begrudge them making more then me, there are some legitimate reasons for that along with the illegitimate ones. Frankly I don't measure my success against other companies or I'd just dig a hole, hop in, and pull the dirt in over me. I measure success against myself, or my standards. Why bother looking at their results if you know it's gonna tilt you?

As for retractions I've had some interesting legal discussions on here about them. If you accept a bid you legally HAVE to accept a retraction. However if someone has retracted bids in the past you are under no obligation to continue accepting their bids. This is in the UCC and is the law of the land nationwide. You cannot contract away your UCC rights either, so even if an auction house makes you sign something saying you can't retract a bid it is non-binding. The only thing they can legally do is refuse to accept your bid in the first place.

Sellers can't stop them from retracting but they can also block them. I didn't say NO retractions, I just said that after so many, you would booted. So, in my scenario, ebay IS allowing the retraction. Then if it is your second one in a year Ebay should suspend or ban the user. I see no issue with that. Two retractions is plenty in a year (and more than most honest ebayers have in 10-15 yrs).

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

absolutely correct, you have to ban their bidding, not their retracting.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I am not the hater that some are, but we're setting the bar pretty low if the fact that they don't break one particular rule while, at the very least, being complicit in allowing others to be flouted, is enough to make them your exclusive ebay shopping destination. There are hundreds if not thousands of sellers, like myself, RobertW, Buythatcard, and many more that follow and enforce ALL the rules.

Scott,

Thanks for including me as one of the nice guys.
I don't let the bigger sellers out there bother me. There are enough profits out there for everyone to share. I may not make as much as the big guy but as long as I come out ahead, I am happy.
If I am not making enough profit, then I will try to find better cards to sell.
I will still start every auction at .99 and let the market speak for itself.
If someone is allowing their auctions to be shilled, then just don't bid there. Obviously, there are enough bidders out there who don't care as long as they get the card they want.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

absolutely correct, you have to ban their bidding, not their retracting.

So then they create a new account and start anew with a different email address.

[CrackaJackKid]

[QUOTE=Leon;1725111]PWCC probably spends 100k+ on advertising a year. How much do you spend?


So more Advertising leads to more eyes, more eyes lead to higher sales...
With technology the way it is today I don’t buy it. Past sales are readily available but yet a vast majority of bidders with them don’t abide by VCP cause they really want it and pay 20% over VCP....lol ok.