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  #1  
Old 01-31-2002, 10:09 PM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: jay behrens

I think someone else mentioned this, but I like the idea of 'authentic' only being used for cards that are trimmed, altered, etc. that would not otherwise be graded by the company. If the card has been unaltered, then it should be graded, unless they are offering the authentic service at a cheaper rate, which I can't see happening since it seems it would entail about the same amount of work and overhead.

Jay

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  #2  
Old 01-31-2002, 10:45 PM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: Plastic Dog

What about the hidden things that SGC notices when assigning grades (like ironed-out creases) that will be passed on to the unsuspecting buyer in an "Authentic Trimmed" purchase and never picked up without removing the slab? And what about rebacked Old Judges? If they get graded, do rebacked T-206s? Could make for some interesting new "Authentic" front/back combinations.

And what about submissions? Does every rejected submission automatically get forwarded to "Authentication" only? Or do you have to write: "Please grade my card from the 1800s NM/MT, but if there is evidence of trimming, or if it would grade below an SGC-30 due to it's earlier iron-job [not to be confused with the less painful hand- or blow-], I would like to make it 'Authentic.'" Is that then an extra grading fee that gets billed after the fact?

Too much potential for confusion or fraud. I still hate the idea.

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  #3  
Old 02-01-2002, 12:05 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: jay behrens

If a card is trimmed or altered in any way, if you follow true grading standards (at as I knew them back in the 80s), then it cannot be graded higher than poor and at that point a hidden wrinkle or other such defect doesn't really matter. I don't really envision 'authentic' as something that someone would be pursing if they are very condition concious. I have always bought my cards based on eye appeal and if it has a hidden wrinkle, that's no big deal to mean. If it is a major concern to someone then they need to stay away from 'authentic' cards. Even in the case of a really rare issue like 4 Base Hits or Yum Yum, I can't imagine that a hidden wrinkle is going to make that huge a difference on the price of card graded as 'authentic' that has been rebacked or altered in some other way.

Authentic grade should not be given to a card that has not been altered in any way, to avoid the problems that you are concered about.

An 'authentic' grade should be an automatic part, or at least an option (I can imagine there would be unhappy people getting back a card to find out it is latered, but then I persoinally would prefer to have all of the altred/trimmed cards slabbed so that everyone knew about it), and would seem to make economic sense in that if they do find a card to trimmed or altered in any fashion, instead of having to send that card back and putting all the man hours into examining it, they could just slab it as 'authentic' with a note to alterations.

Jay

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  #4  
Old 02-01-2002, 12:18 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: Plastic Dog

an Authentic grade still makes it impossible to fully examine a card to see if there are problems above and beyond what is listed on the holder. What do you do, break it out and verify some problems (and risk not being able to return it), or do you put it away not knowing for sure?

I just think the benefits will be overshadowed by the opportunities for misrepresentation in on-line sales.

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  #5  
Old 02-01-2002, 01:12 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: Lee Behrens

I have to agree with my brother on this one, (that doesn't happen often.

The authentication of a card should be just that, telling a person the card is original, not the condition of the card. If you are looking for a graded card you should be looking at graded cards, not authentic only cards. The grading process verifies authenticity plus applying a grade, and that seems to be what you are talking about.

I agree that only cards that would not be graded by the comppany should be autheticated with the reason why, whether it be trimmed,rebacked, etc...

Lee

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  #6  
Old 02-01-2002, 05:20 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: HalleyGator


the POP reports will never "work" correctly for us if people are sending in unaltered and original cards but NOT getting them graded.

What good does it do me to see that there are 10 "authentic" 1887 King Kelly Old Judge cards slabbed??? I want to know what CONDITION those cards are all in and where my card ranks, etc.

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  #7  
Old 02-01-2002, 06:23 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: Marc S.

Someone out there has faith in the population reports?

They are so riddled with errors, mistakes, and "slab-crackers", that it is hard to put much faith in them. There are the T-Bob of the world who simply hate slabs, and then there are the scores of opportunistic dealers who have a high-end 7 that will resubmit it 12 times to get the 8.

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  #8  
Old 02-01-2002, 06:30 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: runscott

First of all, what's the purpose of authenticating?

REASON ONE: I would use it if I had a ****'ed up card that I wanted to sell and I needed to give the buyer confidence that even though it had been trimmed, burned, went through a flood, and was painted, it was still REAL. Maybe the slab would say "AUTH. TR,BU,FL,PA"...and they could even have in fine print on the back of the slab insert "this authentication does not guarantee that this card has not been abused in other ways not identified by our qualifiers".

REASON TWO: I also might want to get a card authenticated if it's an issue I don't know much about, but I want to own one of the cards and feel reasonably confident that it's real. So I send it in for authentication and then break it out of the slab when they send it back as authenticated. Sure, this requires that I trust that the people at the grading company have more skills than I do at authenticating cards...and I PROBABLY would never do this.

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  #9  
Old 02-01-2002, 06:46 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: Jay Miller

Hal---Why does it matter where your card ranks? If you have a nice card and you are happy with the way it looks, isn't that enough. Even if you had a card that was listed by PSA as the best known, does that mean that is the best copy in the hobby? Perhaps there is a better card graded by SGC, or GAI or NASA . More likely, there are better cards in vintage collections where the owners would never have the cards graded. I think the grading company population reports are of limited value for pre-1900 cards because so few of the cards are actually submitted. Having the best known PSA card may be no more than being the big fish in the little pond.

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  #10  
Old 02-01-2002, 09:32 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: Plastic Dog 

When SGC grades a card, I am pretty confident (though I have seen a Nodgrass, formerly Snodgrass, SGC-slabbed card recently which made me wretch) that SGC has verified that:

1. The card is authentic and unaltered, and
2. That the card is of a particular condition

Here's the problem with an Authentic grade: if SGC doesn't go to the trouble of determining condition - how can we the collector if the card is already entombed in a holder?

So we see a scan of an "Authentic-graded" card on EBay, advertised as NM-MT, and we Buy it Now. Great, card comes, we go to take a look at it, and there's kind of maybe a print-line or light surface crease on the back. But I can't tell because I can't feel the card because the slab is in the way. Front is beautiful, centered, white borders (maybe too white, bleached? again can't tell because of the slab - SGC didn't say anything, but do they check for bleach? - I'm not sure, and maybe I can't locate it on their web site). Was this card ironed out? Hard to say. Maybe, but even if it was, SGC will still grade it (but knock off for the small, undetectable surface crease remaining - oh wait, this grade is "Authentic," and short of breaking it out of the slab I have no way to know for sure.) I saw an authentic (not "Authentic") PSA-graded 1952 Topps Mantle recently that was graded a 2. The card had been glued back together after having been torn in half in another era. The card is original and unaltered (though simply reattached). Does that get graded as Authentic? If not, does the top half of my Mantle - ripped from that unloving bottom - deserve to be graded by itself? I know half a Wagner (with the bottom conveniently missing) was graded as authentic by PSA. What's worth more? One whole Authentic Mantle, or a top and a bottom separately graded as Authentic? Guess it depends on your marketing . . .

Authentic sounds nice in theory, but I think it has too many holes that will never adequately be patched and will ultimately do the collector a disservice.

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  #11  
Old 02-01-2002, 10:59 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: petecld

Population reports? Oh, come on now.

I personally have made the poulation numbers on about 15 different cards completely worthless.

But my cards are now free from their tombs.

Go "tbob" and all the Tomb Raiders of the world!

Hmmmmmm, I smell a T-Shirt design here.

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  #12  
Old 02-01-2002, 11:30 AM
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Default Strongly against the "Authentic" grade

Posted By: runscott

I wonder what percentage of slabbed cards get "un-slabbed"? I have a nice collection of t206 backs (SGC labels) that I may accidentally complete some day.

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