Why do we even need TPGs?

[CardboardCollector]

I believe I know all the usual reasons, but when trying to sell cards why not scan at a hi-resolution and show the card in all it's detail? especially higher end or rare cards. All I have are raw cards and do not collect graded or get my cards graded.

I have scans of my cards that even show the slight creases, paper fibers and edge chipping in detail. I know it takes time scan at hi-res and storage is much larger, but when you use a TPG as a trust mechanism wouldn't a good hi-res scan give you a better idea of the card itself.

[glynparson]

the card itself will always tell me what the card itself looks like more than a scan of the card itself.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by glynparson

the card itself will always tell me what the card itself looks like more than a scan of the card itself.

I think Yoda said that.

[Snapolit1]

If I am going to spend real bucks on a card I want a TPG opinion that it's authentic. As counterfeiting and just plain old copying gets more and more sophisticated, I just don't trust myself eyeballing something. Particularly scans of something. People on this board who know a lot more than I do debate all the time whether a scan looks authentic.
Like the kid in the deli doing the quick swipe of the $100 bill . . . . .
And, yes, I realize they make mistakes too.

[Prof_Plum]

I've only had cards graded twice in the last 5-6 years. This most recent submission was for insurance purposes and for whomever inherits the cards. It might be worth their while if they stopped for a moment and had second thoughts before trashing a card of some guy they've never heard of, if it's encased in plastic.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If I am going to spend real bucks on a card I want a TPG opinion that it's authentic. As counterfeiting and just plain old copying gets more and more sophisticated, I just don't trust myself eyeballing something. Particularly scans of something. People on this board who know a lot more than I do debate all the time whether a scan looks authentic.
Like the kid in the deli doing the quick swipe of the $100 bill . . . . .
And, yes, I realize they make mistakes too.

Same - and I'd add that I also like the protection of slabs on expensive cards. They certainly are not foolproof when it comes to authentication but if I'm buying a card over $500 or so, there's an added level of assurance for me.

Not to mention that high-dollar slabbed cards are much easier to sell.

I'm mostly a raw collector myself but there are advantages to TPG-gradedx cards.

[Snapolit1]

If someone is trying to sell a rare card and hasn't gone to the trouble of slabbing it, but wants to tell me how great it is, I suspect strongly something is amiss.

[T206Collector]

Grading provides a level of assurance that is unobtainable from the seller of the card, even with 1,000 pictures.

[kmac32]

In general, I could care less about what grade a card has and it is all about appearance. I slab my cards for display and to protect the cards. It does also help when I go to sell the few cards I sell.

[perezfan]

Could care less, or couldn't care less?

[steve B]

I'm guessing most of you started collecting after TPGs became common?

If I can't see a card in person, a really good scan will tell me all the important stuff. The slabs provide a bit more protection when they're done right. When they're not? They're worse than a plain box.

I can only think of cynical reasons to need a TPG.
Most dealers pre-tgp were at best poor graders, at worst deliberately misleading. Many were good, but the average weekend card show dealer wasn't.

Having tpg commoditizes the collectible, meaning it can be sold to a collector who doesn't know much. All they need to know is what the card is and the grade.
That's both good and bad.
The good is that a lot of people especially people with money may want to collect but don't have the time to learn much about the cards they'll be collecting. Having TPG means they can do that comfortably and that raises prices for all of us. (Also both good and bad)
The bad is that TPG has created an entire generation of collectors who have limited knowledge and experience at handling the stuff they collect.

TPGs are far from infallible. And while I've graded a few cards to make things easier on the family someday, I've also come to have far less faith in them all around.
One can't tell a fake from real even when given a list of points identifying the fake.
Another covers either a mistake or unintentional damage by altering the card and reslabbing it.

And that's not on really obscure sets.

Seriously, I'll trust myself over that sort of place every time.


Steve B

[ullmandds]

card prices would be nowhere near where they are now without grading...not sure if thats good or bad?

[packs]

Scans can always be manipulated. IMO TPGs ensure some kind of balance between buyer and seller. If you're a seller and you tell me your EX is the EX standard, I'm not going to buy that because you're trying to sell me something. You need TPG to ensure that there is some distance between the seller and his card, even though we all know people / houses get preferential treatment.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by packs

Scans can always be manipulated. IMO TPGs ensure some kind of balance between buyer and seller. If you're a seller and you tell me your EX is the EX standard, I'm not going to buy that because you're trying to sell me something. You need TPG to ensure that there is some distance between the seller and his card, even though we all know people / houses get preferential treatment.

can u say "battlefield?"

[Stonepony]

" Battlefield" ( and they've blocked me from their auctions)

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

" Battlefield" ( and they've blocked me from their auctions)

lucky!

[MikeGarcia]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

lucky!

..breathtaking spectacular..

..

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Could care less, or couldn't care less?

I'm amazed at how many people get this one wrong. Saying you could care less suggests that you do care.

[perezfan]

I've never understood it either. But the majority of the population seems to say it that way for some reason.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

" Battlefield" ( and they've blocked me from their auctions)

I haven't checked if I'm blocked but I suppose I am since I left 17 negatives and 6 neutrals earlier this year

[Gradedcardman]

We don't need them but they are in place and being used enough to stay in business. I like them for the card protection. Do I want to "feel" the cards, umm, not really but if I do i'll stop using the services and/or bust them out. For selling of course it helps. Takes the guesswork away from us IF you trust the opinion of the third party. If you don't then use your due diligence and check the scans.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

card prices would be nowhere near where they are now without grading...not sure if thats good or bad?

It's a very bad thing. I could see a small premium over a raw card but the prices those magic plastic holders bring is crazy.

[Bocabirdman]

My 504 card Monster is in slabs (at about an SGC 40 average, including HOF and SL-ers ). I started with all raw but switched to slabs for an eventual sale. I have been a collector since before slabs existed so I still buy raw cards with confidence. I am presently flopping around in the VG/VGEX '49 to '53 Topps/Bowman world just for sh*ts and giggles. They may not increase in value but I can touch them. Hell, I am not even putting them in penny sleeves. It is quite liberating and an awful lot of fun.........

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

For all the bitching and moaning over TPG's (and trust me I've done my fair share), they're the best thing to happen to the hobby. Hands down the hobby would be a fraction of the size it is today without the standardization of grades and protection from fakes.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

For all the bitching and moaning over TPG's (and trust me I've done my fair share), they're the best thing to happen to the hobby. Hands down the hobby would be a fraction of the size it is today without the standardization of grades and protection from fakes.

I think that TPGs are a needed evil. If a collector has started collecting Pre-War, say, in the last 10 years, he lacks the lifetime of hands-on experience to navigate the world of reprints ( announced and covert), doctored cards, and endless chicanery. Also, there are lots of cards that are no longer able to be handled. They need to be entombed to preserve them and delay their disintegration.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I think that TPGs are a needed evil. If a collector has started collecting Pre-War, say, in the last 10 years, he lacks the lifetime of hands-on experience to navigate the world of reprints ( announced and covert), doctored cards, and endless chicanery. Also, there are lots of cards that are no longer able to be handled. They need to be entombed to preserve them and delay their disintegration.

This is well said and describes my experience. I got back into collecting 4 years ago, and three of the first four raw cards I purchased were determined to be trimmed or altered. I know there are long time collectors who would scoff at my ignorance, but frankly, I don't have the time to study the nuances of every card I want to collect or go back and forth with dealers on condition debates. To me, the TPGs mitigate the downsides of being relatively new to the hobby.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

This is well said and describes my experience. I got back into collecting 4 years ago, and three of the first four raw cards I purchased were determined to be trimmed or altered. I know there are long time collectors who would scoff at my ignorance, but frankly, I don't have the time to study the nuances of every card I want to collect or go back and forth with dealers on condition debates. To me, the TPGs mitigate the downsides of being relatively new to the hobby.

I fully understand where you are coming from. However, to me, slabs create a museum-esque, hands-off environment that will prevent you from EVER acquiring the skills of a lifetime. Perhaps reserving slabs for the expensive cards or the ones on their last leg could be an option.

Which era or sets are you chasing?

[irv]

I haven't read all 3 pgs of this thread so it might have already been mentioned, and that is, if I am going to spend big bucks on a card, I most certainly would want it to be already graded. I know in this day and age, it still doesn't necessarily guarantee authenticity, but it sure helps in that regard if you know what you are looking for.

Same goes with autographs. I am not a fan at all as I have read/seen far too fakes just on this site alone with people asking about certain auto's on cards and pictures.

If, for whatever reason, I wanted a signed card, it would most definitely be in a slab that has been authenticated.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I haven't checked if I'm blocked but I suppose I am since I left 17 negatives and 6 neutrals earlier this year

I'm going to assume you bought these cards together. If not, you probably should have learned your lesson around your 18th or 19th purchase.

[tiger8mush]

No wrong way to collect ...

[EldoEsq]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I fully understand where you are coming from. However, to me, slabs create a museum-esque, hands-off environment that will prevent you from EVER acquiring the skills of a lifetime. Perhaps reserving slabs for the expensive cards or the ones on their last leg could be an option.

Which era or sets are you chasing?

Well, this goes both ways. If he buys slabbed cards and studies them, he will learn a lot more quicker. He is not learning by the trial and error of a novice, he is following "experts" and their opinions...

Those of us that have been collecting WAY before slabs had to learn the hard way. I might have picked up 5 reprints before I found a genuine example back in the day. Plus with grading? Grades have changed immensely even since stabbing started. Look at a psa5 that is 15 years old compared to today...trust me, I own them!

As many before have mentioned, TPG's are far from perfect, but they make the entire hobby much more liquid and safer.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Bocabirdman

I fully understand where you are coming from. However, to me, slabs create a museum-esque, hands-off environment that will prevent you from EVER acquiring the skills of a lifetime. Perhaps reserving slabs for the expensive cards or the ones on their last leg could be an option.

Which era or sets are you chasing?

I'm collecting mid-grade HOFers from T206, 14 Cracker Jack, T202, 33, 34, and 38 Goudey, and Delong. I kind of view these cards personally as museum-esque, so I prefer them to be encapsulated for posterity. It was satisfying to hold a T206 common I once bought at a local show, but I'm not sure holding it advanced my skills so much as my connection to the card and the era from which it came.

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I'm collecting mid-grade HOFers from T206, 14 Cracker Jack, T202, 33, 34, and 38 Goudey, and Delong. I kind of view these cards personally as museum-esque, so I prefer them to be encapsulated for posterity. It was satisfying to hold a T206 common I once bought at a local show, but I'm not sure holding it advanced my skills so much as my connection to the card and the era from which it came.

I agree that the cards you are chasing may be strong candidates for slabs. The financial stake is high enough that it is probably best to err on the side of caution.

The "connection" you speak of, as hokey as it may sound, is actually the first step of the lifetime of experience that I mentioned. Try holding a Dover Reprint and see if it "feels" like it comes the T206 era. Hint: It doesn't.

[D.P.Johnson]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

" Battlefield" ( and they've blocked me from their auctions)

"Battlefield" bought some raw cards from me a year or so ago. I think they were SSPC's or RGA's or something similar.

I still feel guilty. Like I'm a co-conspirator or something......

I banned him from buying after that...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

I'm collecting mid-grade HOFers from T206, 14 Cracker Jack, T202, 33, 34, and 38 Goudey, and Delong. I kind of view these cards personally as museum-esque, so I prefer them to be encapsulated for posterity. It was satisfying to hold a T206 common I once bought at a local show, but I'm not sure holding it advanced my skills so much as my connection to the card and the era from which it came.

Neat stuff to collect. And yes, that's stuff that probably should be graded.

The big divide is between now where someone new might buy one T206 that's not graded but is in a toploader or cardsaver, and having collected when a dealer might have a stack of 50+ just loose on a case or out on the table. Unfortunately it takes handling a LOT of cards before you get that ability to hold one and know it just feels "wrong" somehow. I'm not sure it's even possible for most newer collectors to ever get that sort of chance.

Given a bit of time I could probably explain most of it in person using cards I've had for years. I've also been lucky in having a mind that works just the right way to "see" the little things that are the clues to problems.

And I miss stuff too. One card I had graded didn't do as well as I'd thought it would. When I asked about it in person at a show they pointed out the small erased mark on the back that I'd missed. And I'd had the card for a bit over 30 years!

Steve B

[tschock]

Originally Posted by steve B

And I miss stuff too. One card I had graded didn't do as well as I'd thought it would. When I asked about it in person at a show they pointed out the small erased mark on the back that I'd missed. And I'd had the card for a bit over 30 years!

Steve B

Steve,

Hmmm... I wonder. It is a well known fact that not only do gremlins come in the middle of the night and remove commons from your sets that you thought you had, but they also add marks to, or remove paper from, items you have owned for a while. Thus getting you to think you remembered the cards in better condition than currently are. You didn't miss it. It was just altered by the little devils.

[steve B]

That would be a decent explanation. I like it better as it makes me seem less clueless

Steve B

[Bocabirdman]

Originally Posted by tschock

Steve,

Hmmm... I wonder. It is a well known fact that not only do gremlins come in the middle of the night and remove commons from your sets that you thought you had, but they also add marks to, or remove paper from, items you have owned for a while. Thus getting you to think you remembered the cards in better condition than currently are. You didn't miss it. It was just altered by the little devils.

That is ALMOST correct. It is actually POST-WAR GREMLINS that come in in the middle of the night and remove commons from your sets that you thought you had, but they also add marks to, or remove paper from, items you have owned for a while. Thus getting you to think you remembered the cards in better condition than currently are. You didn't miss it. It was just altered by the little devils. Conversely POST-WAR collectors get messed with by PRE-WAR GREMLINS. Collectors that collect both get a double whammy. Every once in a while the two hordes meet and scare the shit out of each other. They don't bother cleaning up after themselves but the collector blames the dog.

[ajquigs]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If I am going to spend real bucks on a card I want a TPG opinion that it's authentic. As counterfeiting and just plain old copying gets more and more sophisticated, I just don't trust myself eyeballing something. Particularly scans of something. People on this board who know a lot more than I do debate all the time whether a scan looks authentic.
Like the kid in the deli doing the quick swipe of the $100 bill . . . . .
And, yes, I realize they make mistakes too.

I agree with Steve. I generally collect mid-grade or lower and I'm pretty good about buying the card and not the holder in that respect. Still, when I'm spending $100 or more I like having someone more knowledgeable than I say it's authentic. Even though they're not perfect, their eye is vastly better than mine.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ajquigs

I agree with Steve. I generally collect mid-grade or lower and I'm pretty good about buying the card and not the holder in that respect. Still, when I'm spending $100 or more I like having someone more knowledgeable than I say it's authentic. Even though they're not perfect, their eye is vastly better than mine.

eventually any cards of any real value will get a third party on it like an insurance company to value the cards in case they are lost etc.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

eventually any cards of any real value will get a third party on it like an insurance company to value the cards in case they are lost etc.

That's another decent reason to have them. I don't know for sure, but I believe an ins co would accept a graded card and the current average from someplace like VCP for value in place of a more formal appraisal.

Steve B

[Leon]

Originally Posted by glynparson

the card itself will always tell me what the card itself looks like more than a scan of the card itself.

me too