question on erasing pencil marks

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

i have a turkey red that very lightly has the number 192 written in pencil on the back of it. what are everyone's thoughts on erasing pencil from the backs of cards? if i did erase the pencil marks will it result in my card receiving an "altered" label from PSA? will it factor into the grading of the card? is it detectable?

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Posted By: Steve

It's a crap shoot. I'd rec'd an AUTH for an erased pencil mark once and a PSA 2(mk) on another. Most times the pencil marks remain and I think the graders can be harsher on these. Consider using a 'Plastic' eraser, if you do.

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Posted By: Anonymous

My thought is to leave it alone, thus passing on the decision of whether or not to erase to future owners of the card. It could be that future collectors will find the presence of such markings to be of value.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...recommends a certain kind of eraser for this. I use an art eraser, available from Staples, etc., that does not damage the fibers of the card when making the erasure.

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Posted By: leon

I am in the "alteration" camp of thinking that if it wasn't there when manufactured, then you can take it off of the card and still sleep well at night. No harm no foul. Everyone has their own opinion on this. There are certain pencil/pen marks that I leave alone and add charisma to the cards, imo. Each case is different. I use a Mars Plastic Eraser and they work great. They crumble extremely easily and have always worked well. As with anything you should try it on a small spot first to see how it works. If the erased mark leaves no indention, even under magnification, then a grading company can't ding for it....as they won't see it. We have had this discussion a bunch of times and it's still relevent. One thing to note though....Some very early pencil marks were with a kind of grease pencil...and those will barely come off no matter what is used....(unless sent to a conservator...which could be expensive)....regards

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

thanks for the info everyone. i'm just afraid it will leave an indent if i erase it. will this effect the grading of the card? right now i think i'm looking at a 4, if i were to leave the number as it is, how do you think it will effect the grade if i choose to have it graded without qualifiers? will it bump down to a 3? 3.5? or all the way to a 2?

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Posted By: leon

If you use the type of eraser I mentioned and rub very gently it shouldn't harm the card. I have used this method dozens of times with no problems. And the indention I mentioned above would be from the original pencil getting written on the card...not the eraser erasing it.....IF whoever marked the card with the pencil did it with a heavy hand then, even after your erase the mark, the indention from the mark will be left. The grading companies will grade that indention just like the mark itself...but the card will look better (most of the times)....regards

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Posted By: T206Collector

"right now i think i'm looking at a 4"

Does anyone have a scan of a 4 by PSA or SGC (50) with a pencil mark on it? I've never seen SGC go higher than a 40.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

i meant the card appears to be a 4 in appearance not taking into consideration the mark. not that i thought it would grade a 4 with the mark considered. i think the pencil will leave an indentation even if i erase it. i'm curious as to what kind of effect a number written in pencil on the back will have in regards to downgrading. i know off center cards can be anywhere from a 1-3 grade downgrade when graded without a qualifier. what about pencil?

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Posted By: Michael Steele

I have an E-90-1 from the last rare series into SGC right now that has the letter c in pencil on the back of the card. I debated long and hard about erasing the mark but in the end left it on for fear of damaging the back and I really do not like to do anything to a card. The mark is very light but it looks like it has been on there for a long time.

Without the mark, the card should grade a 50 (IMO). I should have the card back in a week or so as I submitted at the National with the 10 day return. In talking to SGC it should only get dinged down 1 grade to a 40 if it makes the 50 grade w/o the pencil mark. We will see. This could be a good case study.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

be sure to keep me updated once you do hear back. i'm very curious.

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Posted By: Brandon Brown

I liked this card regardless of the "autograph" on the front, lol. Im not sure what it is written in, so Im not sure if I should try to remove it. Any opinions on overall grade (sending to SGC) with the writing? Thanks!

Brandon

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Posted By: Brandon Brown

Stan the Man autographed Rookie!!! LOL

Brandon

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Posted By: peter ullman

brandon...i don't think you'll be able to get that one off with an eraser..without doing major damage to the card.

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Posted By: Brandon Brown

Would you send this one in, or wait on a better one? What is your opinion of value? Thanks!

Brandon

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Posted By: David R

For what it's worth, I talked to one of the graders at one of the major grading companies a few months ago. He told me that if he had a card with light pencil on the back and he could erase it cleanly, he would do so before sending it in for grading.

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Posted By: Michael Steele

Ali,

I did get the card (E90-1) back from SGC regarding my post on 8/11/08 and it graded a 40. This was as I anticipated. I will E-mail you with additional details on the card tomorrow.

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Posted By: Marty

You will not get the card back from PSA with a lower unqualified grade. If a card has a chunk missing and writing on it, PSA will give it a 1mk. They will lower grades to meet centering, but not writing. If you do not want a qualifier, send the card to SGC. They will consider the writing when assigning the grade.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

I have a T3 Addie Joss that I bought raw on ebay. On the (checklist) back, the entire area above the first row of the checklist (roughly the top two inches) was shaded in by the edge of a pencil.

I used a pink pearl eraser to gently and thoroughly erase the pencil shading before sending it to PSA. PSA graded it a straight 1 due to a pinhole in the top border. Without the pinhole, it probably would have graded a 2 due to scuffing, staining and a couple of minor creases.


Steve

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Posted By: JK

"i meant the card appears to be a 4 in appearance not taking into consideration the mark. not that i thought it would grade a 4 with the mark considered. i think the pencil will leave an indentation even if i erase it. i'm curious as to what kind of effect a number written in pencil on the back will have in regards to downgrading."

With PSA, you will usually get a grade with a MK qualifier. With SGC, it doesn't really matter how nice the card is, it likely wont get graded better than a 40 and usually a 30.

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Posted By: Brian Collie

I must admit that it is sort of disconcerting to see that so many of you are willing to alter a card by erasing marks. Out of curiosity, do you disclose this to potential buyers?

Regarding the comment that this is justified because ... "if it wasn't there when manufactured, then you can take it off of the card" - wouldn't this apply to creases, bent corners, etc. as well?

Seems like a very slippery slope to me.

Brian

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Posted By: leon

I have disclosed erasing a pencil mark before, on a very high end card, and the buyer didn't care. It was in an SGC 80 holder and I had popped it out of a PSA 6 MK holder....The erasing worked perfectly. Most times I will not disclose erasing of a mark. I doubt the cards I have in my possession are pure either and I don't care too much....Now, if there is an indention left after the erasing I will always disclose it...as it affects the value and the look. As for taking a crease or wrinkle out, imo, it's a wholly different situation. Creases, many times, will affect the integrity of the card. Even if a crease is taken out there will be the rigidity question left...AND heavy creases, to my understanding, are very difficult to get out without leaving traces of what has been done. To me these issues aren't a slippery slope. They are different. There are differences in the magnitude of "alteration" just like any thing else such as magnitudes of a crime or food you like or .........
regards

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Posted By: raymond g.

The Forbes Field was done in ink. Dots Miller I can't tell if these marks are erasings or just some other markings on back. Just to give you some examples. To view use Password: psa4mk
http://ImageEvent.com/rgprgp8618/psa4mk

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Posted By: Brian Collie

Leon -

Thanks for your quick reply.

I for one would be very upset to buy a card only to find after the fact that it was altered. I bought a SGC40 Bresnahan T3 from a member on this board only to find a few weeks later in looking through an old Madec catalog that it was previously in a PSA A holder and went for $400 less than what I paid. Needless to say, I was quite upset. I for one would not feel comfortable selling the card to another buyer without disclosing this - as a result, the value of my card has gone down tremendously.

I still think its a slippery slope anytime you mess with the integrity of a card. In my opinion, if you are willing to erase pencil marks, you don't have much basis for being upset if someone sold you a trimmed card or card that had creases removed. Who knows, perhaps in the seller's opinion any altering that makes a card more attractive is acceptable.

Anyway, I respect your opinion. I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Take care,

Brian

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Brian,

I understand your concerns about card alterations, but tend to agree with Leon about differing levels of severity. While I am willing to erase a light pencil mark on a card, I would never try to remove a crease or anything like that.

To me, as Leon mentioned, it's about the cards "integrity". Once a card has been creased, it's integrity has been compromised. The cards fibers have been damaged or broken. Removing pencil markings or something similar to the card's surface, does not damage or break the cards fibers. It would be similar to wiping up water after you've spilled it on a card. If there's no damage to the card, or sign that the water was even there, then it's all academic. Another analogy would be a "dog-eared" corner. If it isn't an actual crease, but simply a bent corner, it shouldn't be a problem to straighten the corner.


Steve

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Posted By: Brian Collie

I guess part of my problem is that I have never seen a card where a mark has been erased where if you look hard enough you
can't see some evidence that a mark once existed. Perhaps I just haven't looked hard enough or perhaps it is just my frustration that things such as these slip by the graders.

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Posted By: leon

Not to beat a dead person (I love animals so don't beat them) that is the whole point about what I am saying with respect to an erased pencil mark. If it is light then there is a good chance it can be erased and there will be nothing at all left....and therefore nothing left to see....and also nothing for a grading company to "miss". I guess you just have to see it to sort of know but suffice it to say thousands of light pencil marks have gotten erased and are erased. Heavier ones are erased too but then, many times, there will be the telltale indention left...which will be deducted for the same way as the original mark....and should be, imo.....