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  #51  
Old 12-10-2006, 10:13 PM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: DJ

I agree that soaking is not an issue as well.

Question to Daniel and Jim. I don't know either of you but did you collect cards BEFORE slabbing existed or does the little number drive you?

I, like most here are happy with creases...happy to flat out a corner...happy to release a piece of tape and even have no problem doing some light erase work. Sometimes a card needs a little work, like my car or Joan Rivers.

DJ

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  #52  
Old 12-11-2006, 03:01 AM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: howard

"These are treasures and should be kept in an unaltered state"

Glue residue itself is the alteration unless the manufacturer issued the cards with ugly bits of paper pasted to them. Removing the glue is just removing the alteration. "Real" treasures are handled this way by museums all the time. Paintings are cleaned, heads are reaffixed to statues, shards of pottery are glued back into whole pieces. Michelangelo's David was damaged 450 years ago and Giorgio Vasari saved the arm and it was reattached. Imagine if the Rosetta Stone was found with glue and paper stuck to it...If "purists" back then ojected to its removal we probably still would not be able to decipher hieroglyphics.

Extreme examples, yes, but my point is why hold cards up to a "greater" standard than one of a kind objects of actual historical significance?

Howard

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  #53  
Old 12-11-2006, 05:17 AM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: JimCrandell

Howard,

Under your definition anything is acceptable.

Hey--i disagree--I realize the majority think differently--but I think its wrong to restore or alter cards in any way.

As I said, lets see more how-to threads with those who practice crease removal(not wrinkles) showing us how you alter the cards in this way.

Soon we will know all the tricks of the trade and be ready to start sliding them by sgc and psa.

Jim

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  #54  
Old 12-11-2006, 05:46 AM
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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

dead horse here.....many will continue to soak. I'm guilty too. Freed about 600 cards from a vintage scrapbook -- about 90% non-sports but also some N162's--two of which reside in SGC70 and SGC60 holders. They are no longer in my collection and they were sold as SGC70 and SGC60's. I did tell the person who bought them that they'd been soaked. They did not look soaked but were. The 60+ Old Judges had been skinned, so no back. They were soaked out and sold on ebay as such and brought great prices for what they were.

There will never be concensus on this. There will always be two sides. It' as polarizing as many of the issues that confront us in the Republican/Democratic debate. I'd say that each side has their beliefs and I'd warrant that most of the card 'doctors' who soak here sleep just as well as the 'purists'. At least Dr. Me slept fine last night.....

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  #55  
Old 12-11-2006, 06:56 AM
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Default About soaking cards

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

16 days before I turn 52, and I slept very well last night. Best night's sleep in a couple of weeks.

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  #56  
Old 12-11-2006, 07:32 AM
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Posted By: dan mckee

My Mantle received a 2. It has a hefty crease. Back when it was still a hobby, before all of the investors entered, soaking was popular to remove scrapbook paper or straighten a corner or to flatten a warped card. If you will notice, the cards I have soaked over the years are still in my collection. I soak stuff that I keep to enhance the physical appearance as mentioned above. It didn't matter back then as people collected and didn't invest. Yes my cards will be sold one day, I may not be around to see it but I do not consider them doctored by plain water. My entire 1962 and 1971 sets were soaked while in the plastic sheets and binders! We had a basement flood and those 2 sets were at the bottom of the cabinet! NOT FUN! Luckily I had a lot of good friends and family members, about 12 of us stayed up through the night, pulling the cards, patting them dry, and placing them between some type of weight. The 62 set was completely saved, the 71 set lost about 15 cards while pulling them out of the pages, a few of the black borders decided to stay behind with plastic sheet. Good Bye guys and Gals.


Edited because I need to stay off of this board.

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  #57  
Old 12-11-2006, 07:42 AM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan,

We may be nut cases with ignorant money but we nut cases have made spectacular returns buying vintage baseball cards over the last 10-15 years.

Jim

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  #58  
Old 12-11-2006, 08:55 AM
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Posted By: MVSNYC

i woke this morning to read this thread...guys, i am with Jim on this one...i can't believe what i am hearing, i guess i am a purist as well, how could all of you bash Mastro's for "preparring" cards (which i do not endorse)...only to happily explain how you soak cards, clean them up, "prepare" them for grading?...come on, sounds like a double standard here.

a card should be left un-tampered with...left exactly the way it was when you obtained it...i think Daniel hit it on the head, the paper damage on the back of a card, pulled from a scrapbook, is the price you pay for pulling it out...i have been collecting for 15 years and the thought of "touching" a card has never even crossed my mind...

escpecially if you plan to send it in to a grading company...you are knowingly cleaning up a card to acheive a higher grade...let me ask you, if & when you go to sell the cards, will you explain that the SGC 70, or PSA 8 has been soaked? of course you won't, and that is the scary part...

sorry for my rant, but was just surprised to hear all of this...

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  #59  
Old 12-11-2006, 10:12 AM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I don't recall everyone bashing Mastro's...

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  #60  
Old 12-11-2006, 10:26 AM
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Posted By: T206Collector

People have been soaking cards forever. And people have been regularly discussing methods for soaking cards on this board, without much if any backlash, for at least the past 5 years.

February 2002:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1013098098/Soaking+t205%27s+to+remove+scrapbook+residue

June 2003

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1056312877/Old+Judge-Tobacco+Card+Scrapbook

A post I began back in July 2004:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1090811501/Any+Suggestions-

Aug. 2004

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1099343294/Glue+cleaning+on+the+backs+of+cards-

Aug. 2005

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1124559528/Cleaning+t206--

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  #61  
Old 12-11-2006, 10:44 AM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

DJ, your post is simply meanspirited and unintelligent, so no need to go into any lengths to describe my collecting history. Sort of like who's got the bigger d@#*........., and somehow you don't sound all that endowed - with knowledge.

Frank, I would just say that in comparison to your scathing comments and T-Rex's alongside, so numerous and incredibly overbearing on previous threads, my comment that it made me feel unwell inside to imagine the practice of soaking repeated thousands and thousands of times was incredibly benign.
Please tell me where I have judged anyone who participates.
I was willing, however, to judge the practice itself.
It was, just ONE opinion, and was hardly screamed across multiple threads with the intensity of your and other voices across those posts regarding Auction House doctoring. And yes, I flat out judge it to be doctoring.

If you wanted to just ask how I came to my opinion on soaking you could simply have asked.
I will share it regardless.

Once you have made a decision to clean up a card, there can be absolutely no way of setting limits that will be adhered to by all. It's like being a little bit pregnant.
There will be some who clean with distilled/tap water to remove debris - others who will soak and then press...just to see if it really is possible to 'grow' the size of a card and make a slight trim here or there possible, others who use erasers to clean pencil marks - and many more who will make attempts at stain or dirt they can gently rub away at, those who simply lay down a corner - and those who lay it down with a little adhesive and pressure to hide any original lift, those who when removing a card from a scrapbook and in the process create back damage - and others who after viewing the damage will say "this card was never meant to exist thus", and skin the back, find a clean back off another example with front damage, and marry the two in wedded 'corrected to original' bliss, and the list goes on, and on, and on.
The reason for setting a nil policy on doing anything to cards is that it makes the process simple. I buy cards, I enjoy them, and then they pass in whatever way to the next person. It's not that some will do this, and others will do that, and 'whatever' because its just all too much to worry about.

What I hear from those voices who feel the practice is ok is a couple of things.
What has happened in the past is unknowable, so any efforts to create a higher standard now is somehow stupid. To that, I would just say: the women's vote. Sure, they as a sex were treated badly and unequally by various societies for countless eons, but that hardly sets a precedent for not righting a wrong, and setting standards as of today that make it hard in the workplace and in society in general for them to be descriminated against. Will some go ahead anyway because of their own version of what is ok? Sure. But we still have the law to protect our daughters and wives and make sure there is recourse and penalty for wrongdoing.
I have not set the law that soaking is wrong, and would take the overwhelming popular sentiment of the day in this less than life altering hobby to make such judgement. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to have a go at voicing what I think makes the practice wrong, and either creating new thought amongst those who hadn't set their minds in stone on the issue, or at least opened avenues to have my own mind changed by the better argument. This first one regarding whats been done in the past I don't feel to be a terrific argument.

And the second one most widely penned is that it is simply an attempt to return a card to a version expected by the original manufacturer. I actually judge this to be an even lesser argument as I think on it (not lesser people who say it, JUST the argument). Firstly, had these pieces of advertising been judged of such import to arrive in pristine condition they would have been packaged and available to the public differently. Most likely a give away on the top of the general store counter. If one also looks at the wide variety in printing quality re registration and oddities, un-like many who have been amazed that such pieces survived and that they must have been spirited away in the night by a daring printer's apprentice...I think it much more likely that such non-uniform examples would have been hugely plentiful amongst the tobacco packs and their relative scarcity is more due to people not saving an unaesthetic piece, rather than tobacco chiefs or printing CO's having great heartbreak over non-perfect product.
And so, a card that was meant to be handled and have its corners worn, or stuck in a book and have glue and paper damage from removal, or color outline around a players head from a son/daughters playing like - well, kids, and tobacco stains and caramel stains and boogers and whatever else...Well, it's ALL supposed to be there. That is the STORY of the card and its survival.

So the fact you in your own home can now pretty up a card, does not automatically make it right. Or wrong. It just FEELS wrong to me.

And finally, the analogy to other vintage collectables is interesting. I believe the greatest change in antiques in the last 15 years is the understanding that you don't screw with ORIGINAL condition. You don't wipe the patina off a deco lamp base, you don't refinish your revivalist furniture, you just leave it like it is. Where paintings come in, I believe is unique. Because they are exactly that - Unique. If there was only one of every sportscard made, then doing absolutely whatever you can to preserve it in good condition makes sense because there are no other exemplars for others to view or own. It's a very, very different fish.


Anyway, again, I have not singled anyone out as being less knowledgable for their opinion otherwise, I have not questioned their collecting reasoning, or been otherwise personally vindictive. It would be nice if others could handle their business in the same way.


Sincerely
Daniel Enright



edited to remove the word sanctimonious, and replace it with overbearing. I really wish not to be as mean mouthed as others have chosen to be.

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  #62  
Old 12-11-2006, 10:56 AM
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Posted By: leon

Wow....that took some time to read. One question...let's say you have an antique lamp in your living room. It's worth far more as an anique than a light but you use it anyway, because that's what lights were made for. Would you dust it off? regards

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  #63  
Old 12-11-2006, 11:04 AM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

yes leon, with a dry lint free cotton rag (would not remove a spec of patina). kind of like blowing off the dust that had settled on your kalamazoo bats card you left out on the computer desk after basking in its glow all night...... and we all know how a computer sucks dust out of the air to settle all over it and everything around it.

regards
Daniel

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  #64  
Old 12-11-2006, 11:08 AM
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Posted By: leon

It was just a question to establish a boundary. Had you said you had a problem with dusting it off it would have swayed my opinion a little bit. Everyone has a right to their opinion....take care

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  #65  
Old 12-11-2006, 11:13 AM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

Ahh, bugger. Leon, to think I was close to swaying your mind is like pomegranite from the garden of eden...or, some such fruit....sooooooo tempting.....

daniel

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  #66  
Old 12-11-2006, 11:25 AM
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Posted By: MVSNYC

"who was bashing mastro's?"

um, if i remember correctly 2 weeks, ago doug allen was on the hot seat and MANY people were upset about them "preparing" cards...

whatever, point being, a line is being drawn here by collects saying, this is ok, but that is not...

IMO, if you touch the card to better it from it's found condition, that's altering...

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  #67  
Old 12-11-2006, 11:27 AM
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Posted By: barrysloate

If you found a scrapbook with cards glued in them you might rightly think that the glue would eat into the surface of the card and perhaps slowly destroy it over time. If you brought the scrapbook to a paper conservator, he would recommend carefully removing the cards, cleaning the paste off the back, and probably spraying them with a deacidifying solution to remove the acids. You would actually be doing a good thing because you would be taking active steps to preserve the cards for future generations. So in that scenario aren't you doing a good thing? Removing foreign substances off paper is a positive step, so why do some look at it so negatively? You have not altered anything, you have just removed harmful substances from the surface.

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  #68  
Old 12-11-2006, 11:45 AM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

I guess Barry you just simply don't agree with the slippery slope theory.
I would rather lose, or have in really poor condition, one or three examples of a card because it hadn't been conserved proffesionally, than 20 botoxed examples all graded a 3-7 because one had ZERO ability to tell anyone else what they can do with their cards, when you yourself are happy to alter them in a fashion you find reasonable.


regards
Daniel

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  #69  
Old 12-11-2006, 11:49 AM
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Posted By: David Vargha

Women have the right to vote? Well, that sure explains a lot.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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  #70  
Old 12-11-2006, 11:56 AM
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Posted By: MVSNYC

a paper conservator working on the dead sea scrolls in a museum is one thing, but a collector "soaking" cards and pressing them to dry in the middle of a phone book, sounds a little more then "carefully removing cards, and spraying them with a solution"...

spin it however you guys wish...but you know darn well that if you sent the card into SGC or PSA right out of the scrapbook, it would grade a "1"...but with your magic tricks they grade SGC 70's,,,and PSA 5's+...

sounds like altering to me to achieve higher grades. and my point earlier was that this was the very thing that you guys gave doug allen a hard time about., "preparing" cards...and many of you are doing the same thing...i don't get it.

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  #71  
Old 12-11-2006, 12:08 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

Daniel- I think we both agree that altering a card isn't an acceptable practice. But some types of glue have bad chemicals in them that over time will destroy the paper. By removing the glue you are actually doing a good thing, and I don't see where the card is being altered. If you were to ask the conservator to, for example, repair a tear, then I agree that is altering. I think we are just trying to define the term.

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  #72  
Old 12-11-2006, 12:11 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I gotta make sure I understand this.

If I win a raw T206 on eBay, and the card arrives uninsured as is, and the post office has folded the envelope, lord have mercy, my T206 is folded in half. If I understand, for me to unfold and flatten out that card would be altering it. I would be changing the condition in which I found it, improving it. And I know SGC would grade it lower if I sent it in folded...


Hmnn..... I wounder what SGC would do if I mailed them in a T206 folded at a right angle. A) refuse to grade it, B) put it in a right angle slab graded authentic... or C) flatten him out and put him in a normal slab. Maybe someone should mail them such a card, just to find out what would happen. Or maybe try a T206 with the corner folded over.

Unbelievable.

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  #73  
Old 12-11-2006, 12:11 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

Daniel,

It's not a slippery slope. If it was slippery, you'd expect to see SGC and PSA grading trimmed or color added cards by now -- but they don't. And they never will.

The only sensible line drawing has to be a standard that can be enforced by the grading companies. That is, universally dedectable alterations are prohibited. You cannot have laws if you cannot discern when they were broken. If you are going to set rules, there must be a means of enforcement.

As I expressed before, if you are upset by the knowledge that someone may have soaked a card off a scrap book page 50 years ago -- or 5 days ago -- then collecting vintage baseball cards is really not for you. Part of understanding the hobby is understanding the standards that have been applied to that hobby since the creation of that hobby.

It may be that you want to change a set of standards -- that is well within your rights. But in order to develop a new set of standards, you need to have a measure of policing and enforcement. PSA and SGC have slabbed how many millions of vintage cards already? The ship has sailed on this issue.

Some at SGC now want to use 'tweener grades to describe cards as 3.5 -- VG to VG-EX. They would be SGC 45's. But they are having trouble rolling out this concept out because they know they will be in for a royal sh*tstorm from all the people with SGC 40's that want to see if they can get a bump in grade. So, it turns out, the fact that they went with a 100 point scale didn't help them at all. They're now stuck because of the standard they used to apply to all of the cards they've already graded.

And it is not the same as women voting. Say tomorrow they set up a technology for detecting whether a PSA 8 was once stuck on a piece of paper and water was used to dissolve the glue. Do you understanding how much money and resources it would cost for everyone that has already had their cards sent in to have to send them back in for a regrade? I'd be first in line to do it, if the standards of the community required it. But it would be very expensive for many.

Change no matter the cost is essential when those changes are required to perfect universal rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness -- be it gender equality or racial equality. But when it comes to collecting little pieces of cardboard, there is no Constitutional or public health justification for doing a massive recall of PSA or SGC cards based on the oft-used and widely accepted practice of using water to remove scrap paper. It just isn't the same thing.

Paul

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  #74  
Old 12-11-2006, 12:14 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

[my point earlier was that this was the very thing that you guys gave doug allen a hard time about., "preparing" cards...and many of you are doing the same thing...i don't get it.]

I'm not opposed to Mastro soaking cards and I don't think they have a duty to disclose it. I don't think that people have been on both sides of this issue. Can you point to two posts by the same person on both sides of this one?

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  #75  
Old 12-11-2006, 12:15 PM
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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

"a card should be left un-tampered with...left exactly the way it was when you obtained it...i think Daniel hit it on the head, the paper damage on the back of a card, pulled from a scrapbook, is the price you pay for pulling it out...i have been collecting for 15 years and the thought of "touching" a card has never even crossed my mind..."

Remember....you can have two types of cards pulled from scrapbooks. Cards with paper ADHERED to them that can be removed and cards with paper LOSS. If you don't simply rip them from the book, in many cases, you can soak the paper ADHERED to them off. I know you are vehemently opposed to this but as Dan said, it is WIDELY done. I would certainly not approve of ADDING something to the back of the card to repair the paper LOSS example.

Check back through the last 3-4 years worth of Mastronet and Robert Edward auctions and see a few scrapbooks of T206's or other cards and see what they went for. Think those cards didn't get soaked out and ultimately either graded or sold? I distinctly remember a couple of those albums (because I bid on them as well) selling for $3-$5K or more.

I'm sure the thought of the whole process--especially for the slabbemites--is very disconcerting. To think you have slabbed cards that were once soaked off paper or from an album eats at you. If you didn't have that knowledge and looked at the card and admired it, why would your whole life crash down WITH the knowledge that it had been soaked?

Those with the thousands of graded cards should work diligently to get the PSA's and SGC's of the world to REJECT soaked cards if it runs so far against your ethics. Those entities must not be too concerned about soaking if they've allowed such cards to be encapsulated. Like was stated earlier, if you collect only 8's and above, the probability they've been soaked SHOULD be less than those in 4-6 holders. Most of the albums I've ever seen have been in VG-EX type condition. Nothing pristine. I'm sure those albums at one time may have existed though.




As an aside....
Hopefully all those opposed to the practice of soaking or 'altering' cards would not consider lasix or plastic surgery or breast implants for their wives or anything that would alter any facet of their lives. Guess when you get that fender bender in your car, you just let it go to protect the integrity of the car. Oh...don't polish those silver tea services either. That oxidation should be left as is....

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  #76  
Old 12-11-2006, 12:25 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

I think if one bought a scrapbook with cards glued in they would want to remove them simply because that is not how people collect. Nobody who collects today glues their T206's into albums- collectors want individual cards, whether they be raw or graded. It's such a basic thing to remove them. And if it isn't done right and there is some paper loss on the back, they all are going to grade poor. If on the other hand they are removed properly without causing damage, what is the harm? I still don't see how they are being altered.

Comic books, for example, were made of the worst quality acidic paper imaginable. Given enough time, they are all likely to disintegrate. If they can be sprayed with a solution that removes the acid from the paper, the comic will survive significantly longer. Do people think that is a bad thing? Is that altering a comic, or preserving it?

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Old 12-11-2006, 01:25 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Paul and Barry,

If I understand you arguments correctly, a large part of it is that people got away with restoring and altering cards in the past by soaking them, some or many of these have found there way into graded company holders, there is no way to detect if they have been soaked so we might as well continue on with the altering of cards in this manner.

Sorry but I don't buy it. Just because alteration by soaking or removing creases or whatever has occurred in the past is no reason it should go on today. I come back to my argument that it is just wrong to alter these historical treasures and they should always be maintained in the same condition in which they were found.

Jim

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  #78  
Old 12-11-2006, 01:39 PM
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Posted By: jackgoodman

I can't believe we're now arguing about water.

Reminds me of F. Lee Bailey's question to one of the detectives in the OJ trial: "Is it possible that you didn't see footprints that were invisible?" Dumb question then, dumb question now.

"Is it possible that you don't see any effect of the card being dipped in water?"

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Old 12-11-2006, 01:42 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Nuts...

Soaking isn't ok becuase it has been done before, nor because it can't be detected. It is ok because it is ok! Who says stuff has to stay how it's found???

One of the neatest things I've seen was a P-38 aircraft that was recovered from Greenland. Here's a link.

http://www.thelostsquadron.com/

So Jim, if I get a folded T206, is it taboo to unfold it??

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Old 12-11-2006, 01:48 PM
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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

No, Jim, you're actually saying it's okay to alter these historical treasures by adding glue to them and pasting them into scrapbooks. It's just not okay to remove these alterations with water.

Is air okay? I'm sure you're okay with blowing dust off a card, but can you brush it off with your finger? Dust wasn't originally on the card, but neither was your finger, so you would just be altering the card more by brushing the dust off, right?

Also, I don't think Jim said it, but I love the argument that it's okay to remove a card from a scrapbook as long as you tear it out and leave the back of the card in the scrapbook as the price you pay for removing it. Classic!

-Ryan

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Old 12-11-2006, 01:54 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Ryan,

Not okay to add glue to paste them into scrapnbooks but once done also not okay to undo it.

Rest is you are being silly--

I am against card alteration and restoration not brushing dust off.

Jim

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Old 12-11-2006, 01:54 PM
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Posted By: howard

"Under your definition anything is acceptable"

Jim, I'm not sure how you reached this conclusion based on what I wrote. I am in favor of removing any type of built up residue on any piece of art, any card etc. I also favor putting things back together if the original pieces still exist. I am opposed to adding new pieces or new color to any historical objects. I am also against trimming whether it be manicuring the borders of a T206 or giving Michelangelo's David a haircut.

Howard

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Old 12-11-2006, 01:56 PM
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Posted By: steve f

Frank, These are the only folded-up planes you should straighten.

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:02 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Beautiful Corsair... F4U or FG ??? Looks like that is at Pennsicola NAS??


And Jim, you've told us dusting is ok. What about unfolding a folded T206??? Is that ok, or not?

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:06 PM
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Posted By: JimCrandell

Howard,

Thanks for the clarification.

Jim

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:09 PM
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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Jim,

It's as easy to make the case that brushing dust off a card is alteration as it is to make one that removing glue residue by soaking in water is alteration.

Sorry, it's just your subjective view on this matter. There are clearly a handful of other that share this view with you, but when the great majority all view it differently, well that different view starts to look objective.

Everyone differs in their opinion about this. I personally draw the line at water. Any chemicals that are used cross the line into alteration, but that's just my subjective opinion.

What about this scenario: Not all glues are soluble in water. If you soak a card in water and it still won't come off the paper so you tear it off, removing most of the back in the process, do you consider that alteration? Or is that just me being silly?

-Ryan

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:17 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

You know what's funny?
What is considered paper's worst enemy?
Moisture.
Which brings me to another interesting (at least in my mind) thought.
Paper is created with fibre and water being mixed, pressed and dried. It is dried to a very specific remaining water content to best maintain its stability to survive going forward.......anyone want to hazard a guess what the moisture content level remaining in the paper after you have 'pressed and dried' it is? Any chance you have increased it's natural and intended levels for optimal survival, and that even small increases of heat or humidity could now create conditions likely for the paper to start to mould and break down.....? Just a thought for the soakers. If what you are doing eventually ends up in the premature breakdown and loss of these cards, how will you then justify it? Will it be ok because you paid for them and it was your right to do as you chose, or will you feel any kind of responsibility to the hobby as a whole for destroying some of what remains of vintage sportscard stock?

Just a query, as Frank is so fond of posing.


Sincerely
Daniel


Daniel

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:23 PM
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Posted By: David Vargha

Any chance you have increased it's natural and intended levels for optimal survival, and that even small increases of heat or humidity could now create conditions likely for the paper to start to mould and break down.....?

I suppose that's what the stage know as "drying" is for. The card will have ambient humidity whether it is wet and then dried or if it is dry and then takes on humidity from the air.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:31 PM
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Posted By: howard

Papers worst enemy is fire.

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:32 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

My little cards have always hated being sealed up and slabbed...


Jim, what about unfolding a folded T206??? Is that altering, is it ok?

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:35 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

David, and I respect your knowledge if you are representing yourself as somewhat expert in this area, do you understand the amount of water remaining in the card after being pressed between some version of blotting paper and some books as not being significantly greater than paper/card that has been manufactured for long term substrate use for lithographic or painting purposes? That is, I know paper that has higher moisture levels will absolutely mold, especially in the right heat conditions. It is why you have to be careful in how you keep books in differing humidity georgraphical areas. Still, it is relatively hard for paper that is 'open' to the elements to draw significant moisture from 'normal' humidity (non tropical) factors and usually it will not start the mold process. I am guessing that pressing out water after soaking would still leave hugely elevated amounts of water remaining in the paper pulp itself, and be more prone to such problems. The natural drying process is not the same as the kiln like rooms that paper is dried out in.
Do you know it to be otherwise?

Daniel

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:37 PM
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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Daniel,

Personally, I think glue remaining on a card would be far more destructive than this mysterious water-retention alteration you've posited.

But a much more legitimate concern should be what will happen to the paper residing inside of a slab after 20 or 30 years? Although they are not air-tight, they are pretty close. Some of the sealed card condoms within slabs probably are airtight. Depending on the quality of paper, the acids that are released over time will destroy the card itself without air to dissolve into.

Anyone who has collected pulp magazines for more than 10 years has probably had the experience of witnessing fairly white pages become brittle and brown almost before their eyes.

Most baseball cards weren't made on such poor quality paper (maybe some strip cards) but still have acids in them that shouldn't be trapped inside an airtight environment.

Jim, since you have thousands of high-grade cards in slabs, care to speculate on what they might be like in 20 years? Do you plan to poke holes in the slabs to let some air in? Are you altering the cards by letting the acids destroy the integrity of the cards?

-Ryan


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Old 12-11-2006, 02:41 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

I come back to my argument that it is just wrong to alter these historical treasures and they should always be maintained in the same condition in which they were found.

Your argument is that soaking cards with water is "wrong." You can keep saying it over and over again, but at this stage of the argument it would be useful if you would respond to some of the counter arguments with something other than it is "wrong." Your explanation for why it is wrong has thus far not been persuasive to most of us.

Basically, you advance a cause that cannot be policed, monitored or enforced -- and that most people in the industry disagree with. It will take more than repeating your belief that it is "wrong" to change that.


Paul


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Old 12-11-2006, 02:43 PM
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Posted By: barrysloate

For those who oppose removing cards from a scrapbook- and I would like to add that I have never owned a scrapbook of cards so my argument is purely theoretical- what if you simply don't want them glued in and would prefer to remove them so that they can be placed in plastic sheets and merged with the rest of one's collection? Should they still be left as is? I realize we reach a dilemma when the cards eventually hit the marketplace, but until that point what's wrong with removing them? What if poor quality paste was used and the cards pretty much fall out with just a little pressure. I don't even know what we are arguing about (actually, every topic on this board ends in an argument, so why am I surprised?)

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:46 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

Ryan, I would have to think that these magically cleaned off cards that have had the glue removed so effortlessly that they now reside in high grade holders would answer your first question. Obviously, 90+ years of being in contact with most glues of that time had absolutely zero effect on the card's structure or finish. Perhaps some staining, but generally no flesh eating disorders resulting in layers of paper being digested.

And secondly, your point regarding the effect of being in a semi-airtight container such as a slab is probably an excellent one, and if anyone made valid observations showing it was negative to the long term preservation of my cards, I would instantly drill nice precise little holes into a corner of each one of them.

Breathe, my babies, breathe.


Daniel

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:47 PM
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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

In the past, when I broke slabbed cards from their little tombs, I thought it was ok... was I altering those cards? Once slabbed, was I supposed to leave them in there?


And Jim, still no word that I've seen about whether it is ok to unfold a folded T206....

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Old 12-11-2006, 02:56 PM
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Posted By: E, Daniel

Barry, me thinks it is possible to remove these cards without soaking them.
Firstly, I wonder if people who are removing cards from scrapbooks actually remove an entire page and put it into the bath, or simply turn over the page and dampen the back of where the card is adhered, moistening it enough to release the card on the front....
It is the secondary process of full nudity bathing in a giant pool to then remove remnants off the back of the card that I have issue with. Not because I am all too fussed about the removal of glue, but because one man's dunking for that purpose is another man's dunking for later stretching and trimming. I still don't see how anyone has dealt with the issue of boundaries, and quite clearly from a lot of responses there are a wide wide range.

For me, I would prefer a black and white situation, even if the detection and prosecution of its tenets were hard, difficult, near impossible, or there were none.
1. Don't do anything to the cards.
2. Do whatever you like to the cards.

Anything in between to me has no real meaning as I can have no hope of knowing if one man's steak was simply another man's jerky.


Daniel

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Old 12-11-2006, 03:02 PM
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Posted By: T206Collector

[Anything in between to me has no real meaning as I can have no hope of knowing if one man's steak was simply another man's jerky.]

Why do you think PSA, SGC and the majority of the people on this Board have found a line in between 1 and 2? If it were just an imagined line or if it was made up, why do most of us seem to come out the same way on issues of trimming, color added and water soaking?

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Old 12-11-2006, 03:11 PM
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Posted By: scott brockelman

You SOAK them off of covers and dry them and collect them. It has no ill effect on them and it is 100% condoned by the hobby.

Soaking a tobacco or caramel card has the same effect on the card NONE. When properly done a less than perfect card becomes a nice little collectible.

For those keeping score at home we have approx. 3-4 anti soakers, a few borderline soakers and a overwhelming contingency of Soak til you drop.

It seems a few are trying to make the rules for all the rest, except that their desire goes against the hobby norm.

Scott

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Old 12-11-2006, 03:17 PM
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Posted By: John S

After reading the posts I really cannot decide (and probably do not care enough) whether cards have been soaked. If a seller was aware I would probably appreciate having that information disclosed. I have a few examples with scrapbook still attached, none of which have anything terribly important on the reverse (a T206 and a N302 come to mind). This one left some card behind but also took a little scrapbook.

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