Mystery t206 card

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Posted By: T E

Fred at eBay's Sports Memorabilia board suggested I post this query here:

Okay, t206 detectives, here's one for you!
This card has been sitting in my safety deposit box with my other t206 cards for the last 25+ years. I never thought about it, assuming it was a worthless error card.

Now I see a major on-line auction house is selling item, one in which a Piedmont logo is over-printed over another brand on the reverse of a common.

This card is much weirder. First, it seems that almost ev ery brand of t206 tobacco is overprinted on the reverse. But even more tantalizing is the ghost portrait.

Does any one know who this player is?

Is there any value to all this except for the odd-ball angle?

Thanks!

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Young portrait i believe.

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Posted By: andy becker

looks like cy young portrait to me....
hard to say on value

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Posted By: Joe Jones

Is it chesbro?

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Posted By: T E

Is this a common kind of error?

If it is of some value, I'm thinking to send it to PSA to authenticate.

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Posted By: andy becker

to further respond, looks like piedmont, el principe de gales, and old mill.....not sure i see any other tobacco brands.
that being said, i don't think i have ever seen a 3 brand back before.
nice card. good luck.

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Posted By: leon

suffice it to say, to the original poster, it is worth significantly more than a normal common card. My guess (and it's only an educated guess) from seeing other weird cards is somewhere in the $300-$600 range. I just thought I would throw out a respectable value for our fellow newbie. Hope this helps a little... Neat card btw......

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Posted By: andy becker

to further, further respond , i don't think a psa slab would increase the value.
not even sure they would slab it anything other than authentic.

i would agree with leon (hi leon) regarding value....but it may go higher with cy young.

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Posted By: T206Collector

I would guess in the right auction would fetch closer to/over $1,000.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The "ghost" image is that of Cy Young. This portrait pose of him was in the
very first Series (150) of T206 cards.

I have similar cards like this in later Gum issues where the printers were
using "reject" stock to clean their press plates of old ink in order to start
the next press run.

The front shows a Southern Lgr. (Mullaney) and this is very informative.
As Scot Reader analysis indicated that 42 of the 48 So.Lgrs were produced
very early in the process. Therefore, this "crazy" card confirms his findings.

We are very grateful to you for posting it....Thanks much.

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Posted By: T E

Thanks, everyone. I bought this card back in the early '70s with about 180 others for $15. Years later, my apt was robbed, thieves took most of the cards, for some reason left about 75 on the shelf. This was one of the 75.

I always wondered who the player was. Young, that is too cool.

As for selling...If the answer had $3,000 to $5,000, away it would go! But, $300-$500, even $1,000, probably will end up back in the vault.
Great sentimental value to me.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Awesome!

You could complete your T206 "rare backs" collection with just ONE card!

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Posted By: T E

By the way, Ted, that is great information, thanks everyone, it's great to know there is a board like this around!

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Posted By: Jamie Hull

Very cool card. Thanks for sharing it.

Jamie

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Posted By: steve f

Now I know where Eddie Van Halen got the design for his axe. Unique piece there!

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Posted By: T E

I think I should have it authenticated by PSA in case I ever decided to sell- can't hurt.

But it would be like selling a piece of my teenage years...

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Posted By: Bill Kasel

Another reason why I love this site! What a unique and awesome card! Thanks for sharing.

Bill

"The beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad, so I had one more for dessert"

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Posted By: T E

Ditto and likewise, Bill, on this site.

I've stared many times over the past 30+ years at this card, never thinking much of it (I was jaded, I think, by owning a couple of similar looking Topps cards from the early '60s, just assumed this was a common practice in the industry) but wondering what the heck it was, and especially who was that ghostly image peering out at me.

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Posted By: T206Collector

....is whose yellow silhouette is that on the back?

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Posted By: T E

Jeepers, do you mean there is a second image, that yellow shadow?

Hopefully, the yellow ghost of Wagner!

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Posted By: Trae R.

This is the coolest T206 error I've ever seen, I love it!

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I think I can make out an arm or a leg -- most certainly not a portrait image.

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Posted By: Sean

That is one interesting card,I would never let that go...unless...

It looks like Cy Young is only printed in black ink and ??? in yellow. And the Old Mill is brown?

Too cool

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi TE,
Great card!!! I have seen quite a few of these over the years, but never one as cool as this one. You can never tell what a card will bring at auction , but I would say 1250.00 to 2000.00 would not be out of the question. I can't wait to look at the scans a little closer tomorrow.
Thanks for the scan. Brian


PS Ted, the Young Portrait was available in the 150 and 350 series, but the Old Mill printing does appear to be in brown ink. Plus the 3 different backs further illustrates that all of the cards were printed in one location and then distributed to the factories for insertion.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian W

Upon closer observation this PIEDMONT is a 350 Subjects back. So, I must
defer to you......thanks for motivating me to take a 2nd look. And, I must
modify my initial observation that the original 42 Southern Leaguers were
printed along with the 150 Series.

And, it's always been my contention that all the T206 cards were printed in
one facility; and therefore, I am definitely in agreement with the conclusion
you have come to from seeing this card.

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Posted By: T E

So the question is, what is this yellow ghost behind the Young ghost?

I didn't know he existed until a few hours ago.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Yellow coloring appears to have a pattern of a particular card's
background color. A first attempt to identify this particular card would
to compare this pattern to all yellow backgound cards. However, one must
realize that the yellow ink was the first color pass in the multi-inking
process to create the different background color. So, it might be a very
complicated exercise.

Very simply put, the Yellow is the result of placing the sheet this card was
on, onto another sheet whose Yellow ink had not yet completely dried.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I think the edges of the yellow are too crisp to be a wet sheet transfer. Not that it matters, but I think it was the beginning, first phase of printing another image.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted and T206 collector,
You both have a good point on the yellow, but I'm having a hard time finding another image in the card. The card was definitely "major" printer's scrap, so I doubt we will ever know, but the difference in the shades of yellow bothers my eye. I need to look at all of the brown and yellow cards I have scans of and get back to you.
I wonder what by buddy Art is thinking? Talk to you soon Brian

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Posted By: Scot Reader (ebay: sreader3)

Mullaney and Young Portrait were both first available in the 150 series (Mullaney only with Brown Hindu) and extended into the 350 series for a short time. Since all of the backs shown in the scan were available in the 350 series (namely, El Principe, Old Mill Southern, Piedmont 350) it would appear that this particular specimen was printed in the 350 series--near the tail-end of the production run for these two subjects. Scot

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I think the card is a four-figure one, especially if authenticated by SGC and offered in a major auction. Admitted printing freak junkies like me will pay for something that bizarre.

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Posted By: PC

A better way to determine the identity of yellow ghost image is to trace (digitally or on a color scan) aound the image on the border of the yellow, and then look for the same outline/image in the T206 set. Any photoshop/digital imaging whizzes out there that can "delete" the other colors, or enhance the yellow, to get a clearer imprint of the image?

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Posted By: Jamie Hull

Well, I had tried the Photoshop route yesterday on my lunch hour, and the prior post spurred to go back and give it another look. I'd accented the dark yellow patches while removing the lighter yellow shade that is clearly associated with Cy's green background. Then made the white sections of the card black. But I was stumped until this evening -- when I rotated the image horizontally.
I think it's the horizontal George Mullin. The only tricky part is that the outline doesn't go around his glove, though yellow may well be a base color for producing the brown of his glove (I'm not a color expert). Otherwise seems like a pretty good fit.

Jamie

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Posted By: t206King

well here it is with "reverse color" its easier to see. it looks like an outline of something. i cant make it out to be honest

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Posted By: fkw

Great Job Jamie! I believe you got it. I didnt think anyone could figure that second card out. very cool way you did it too. Im impressed.

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Posted By: Sean

T-King,

I think I have that Pink Floyd record cover...looks real far-out under a black light.

Well looks like I will be listening to the Dead tonight!

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

That is neat I am going to have play in photoshop. They are like retro cards.

By the way I think that this card would have to be the most expensive ever, with the Cy Young on back and everything on the front is clear. I sold a scrap Tolstoi back for $800 about 5 yrs ago.

Lee

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Posted By: Art M.

Very nice card indeed. Looks like the card got stuck at the printers over and over again!

Congrats to Jamie on isolating the Mullin, throwing, as one of the overprints on the back. I was stuck on Pelty or Powell as a possible answer, but 99% sure it is the Mullin, throwing pose.

Great card.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

INTERESTING NOTE:

Would "MULLIN" be the very next card in the T206 set after "MULLANEY"???


The front of the card shows Mullaney... so if Mullin is the very next player, then it increases the odds of this being his shadow in my mind.

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Posted By: PC

[edited: posted twice]

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Posted By: PC

Hal: Mullaney comes right before Mullin alphabetically in the T206 set.

However, there are three Mullin poses.

That card is pretty unbelievable. Multi-back with an Old Mill and EPDG, with Cy Young (which is not a wet sheet transfer because the image is not reversed) and a Mullin (horizontal) (also not a wet sheet transfer).

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Posted By: tfever

Jamie... U're the man. I guess I need to learn how to use photoshop then I can do the same thing to some of my ghost cards.

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Posted By: T E

Your research is really incredible, thank you everyone! Thinking of turning the card sideways in photoshop, great!

As an eBay since '01 seller who deals in misc items, broad range, (some might call it junk, but one man's junk...) and as someone who attends many auctions, both live and online, I would agree that ultimate price could go much higher than estimated originally. I have received several offers mid four figures since posting here, which makes me think it could well go higher.

I would like to thank the people who made those offers, but if I do sell it will probably be a high end auction route, you (meaning me, the prospective seller) only get one bite at the apple.

That said, I don't think I'm going to sell. Think about it, this card actually survived a robbery in my apt (of course, several Ty Cobbs and other HOFs went out the window to my fire-escape that day) and God knows what else I've been through in NYC over the past 30+ years, I have really enjoyed just posting it here and learning about it from you all.

I am going to get it authenticated. I have it now in a plastic holder anyway, so it might as well be a slab.

I normally use PSA but I am told that SGC is better for old cards. Does it make a difference if it is just a matter of being authenticated?

Do grading Co's ever wave fees with hi-end cards? The way I look at it, if it goes on auction, it is free advertising for whoever's name is on slab.

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Posted By: Leon

Sorry for my low original estimate. I wanted to at least get the ball rolling as it was a little slow to start. It's fairly normal on this board for something not to get much response until there are a few.... I don't track these "freaks" too much but other ones WITHOUT Cy on the back have brought my estimates. Congrats on such a neat card and the value which it has.....take care

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Posted By: PC

Probably a question for Ted and Scot, but does this card tell us anything certain about the timing of the T206 production process? It is obvious that the back is a Piedmont 350 (you can see the bottom of the "3" in the upper right corner), but there's nothing that indicates this card could not have been part of a blank-backed sheet left over from the 150 subjects printing, and used as a test sheet for both 150 printing and later 350 printing tests.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PC

With Mullaney (Jacksonville), a So. Lgr on the front, this multiple printed
card cannot be in the initial Series of 150 Subjects.

All Southern Leaguers (and for that matter, all Minor League players) in
the T206 set appear only in the Series of 350 Subjects.

The images of Cy Young (portrait) and Mullin (Horiz) on the back can be
found in both the 150 and 350 Series. But, further reinforcement of this
card having been printed in the 350 production run is confirmed by the
various backs (the most obvious being Piedmont 350).

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Posted By: T E

Hey Leon, nothing to apologize for, I can't thank you enough, along with other posters, for your feedback and help. Giving an estimate is very tough, especially if you are the first to speak...

Authentication question- so, if sgc or psa or whoever slabs this card, which side of the card actually shows in front? Obviously industry standard is front of card, but it is back of card that is of interest...

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think you should submit it as:

T206 Cy Young (portrait)
w/Brown Old Mill Back
(Error Front - Missing Colors)
(Error Front - Overprint from Back)
(Error Back - No Brand printed)
(Error Back - Ghost Image of Mullane)

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Posted By: Josh K.

I think if you made a request to sgc that they would probably slab it anyway you wanted. I would suggest calling them b/f you send it if you want to make sure that they will but the back in the front of the slab.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

and ask them if they would slab it with the back facing forward, since the back is what is the real attention-grabber.