Piedmont Overback?

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Posted By: Matt

How common is the Piedmont "Overback" on a T206, where a Piedmont back was applied on top of another back so the card could be distributed with the correct brand? I recall there was a thread where someone soaked off the back a few months back, but can't dig it up.

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Posted By: Red

Very common. In fact that's where a lot of Drum backs are hiding.

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Posted By: Matt

Any of the T206 hobby veterans care to weigh in? Ever see one of these before?

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Posted By: JimB

If it is a HOF, I imagine somebody was trying to increase the value by putting an Old Mill back on it. It is more common to see that done with even tougher backs like Drum and Uzit. It is a shame because it is easy to detect and the scammers destroy perfectly good Drum and Uzit backs in the process. In the case of the card mentioned, it is an alteration gone bad and decreased the value of the card.

JimB

Edited to add: I did not realize it was Piedmont over Old Mill. I thought it was the other way around. That does not make sense.

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Posted By: Mike

Hey Matt,

Is this the thread you were thinking of?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1230968108/T206-T215+Help+Please

--
Mike

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Posted By: Matt

Jim - I agree that it wouldn't make sense for a collector to do this, which gives more credence to the probability it was done by the factory to allow distribution with Piedmont cigarettes. I assume you haven't seen one before, which is why your initial inclination was that it was done later, but the monster gives away a new discovery every now and then.

Mike - that's the thread I was thinking of, but I see now it wasn't a T206.


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Posted By: NYHighlanderFan

I AGREE WITH RED...

I also think the Drum backs were layered over...the ATC realized how big of a pain in the @$$ they were inserting them inside those 2.5 ounce pouches of tobacco!...LoL...

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I don't accept the factory reback idea you guys are kicking around.


Rebacking seems more manufacturing intensive to me than just making a card with the desired back. American Litho prints lots of card front sheets, then backs them as they need. Once a back is printed they should be close to cutting the sheet and shipping it off. Absolutely no sense in rebacking at the factory.


Seems to me that a rebacking could occur where someone wants a certain back on a certain card (today, for money, 100 years ago because a kid wants a certain back to match up with other cards). Or rebacking could occur where a card is peeled away from a scrapbook and another card pasted in its place. Just imagine some kid peeling a spare Cobb card out of his scrapbook, leaving a bit of the back, then pasting in the 'new' series Crawford card that he'd traded for...

Factory rebacking, not credible.

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Posted By: Matt

Frank - thanks for weighing in. I agree that overbacking would not be as easy as just printing the cards with the correct back in the first place, but by that logic, we wouldn't have overprints, either. Although, to be fair, adding an additional back is even more intensive then overprinting a factory. Furthermore, Piedmont were the most common backs - it would be odd that they had Old Mills lying around and needed to turn one into a Piedmont.

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Posted By: Matt

"rebacking could occur where a card is peeled away from a scrapbook and another card pasted in its place. Just imagine some kid peeling a spare Cobb card out of his scrapbook, leaving a bit of the back, then pasting in the 'new' series Crawford card that he'd traded for..."

I'm not exactly sure how this would happen - you're suggesting that the back of the Piedmont Cobb was so well glued in that when the Cobb was pulled out, the back remnants stayed in the scrapbook. Then a Crawford gets glued in on top and then when the Crawford is pulled out, instead of leaving part of the back, not only does the Crawford come out with no PL, but it brings the securely glued Cobb remnants with it? Or, if it was soaked out wouldn't the Piedmont remnants have fallen away, seeing as they are so thin?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Frank's scenario sounds like a very plausible explanation for this overbacked card.

The Crawford (throwing) card was initially issued in the 150 series. Then, was re-issued with 350-type backs,
of which the OLD MILL is one. The remnants of the Piedmont back indicate a Factory 25 back.

American Lithograph printed millions of these Piedmont backs. So, I ask....why would they go to the trouble of
re-backing an Old Mill card ? It would be very easy for them to just print up some more Piedmont's.

Now, if this overback was a Piedmont 460 Factory 42 one, then we have another story. Someone was simply
trying to enhance the value of this Crawford card by re-backing it with this rare back.

However, this Crawford card (as I've already said) was not issued in the 460 series.


I cannot come up with any other plausible explanation than Frank's.


TED Z

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Posted By: Matt

Ted & Frank - thanks for weighing in. I suppose I will give him a bath.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...totally fraudulent in my opinion. The top right corner of the Piedmont back is worn like any other VG corner would be -- and yet it is not on the corner of the card. This means it was added quite some time after factory.

Also, the "frame lines" in the Piedmont advertisement were deliberately lined up with the Old Mill lines underneath.



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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The overprint is an interesting situation...

Obviously, American Litho took front and back printed, finished sheets, and 'added' to the back...

Is it possible that the overprint was because production was moved from a previously printed factory to the new factory??? If so, that could be why we now have overprints instead of just a new print.


Matt, I agree that the scrapbook scenario seems unlikely. I can envision a kid born about 1903 fooling with these cards in 1911 or 1912, putting matching backs on his 'team'. That seems MUCH more likely than factory rebacking.

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Posted By: Matt

Frank - this is an important question for discussion:
"Is it possible that the overprint was because production was moved from a previously printed factory to the new factory??? If so, that could be why we now have overprints instead of just a new print."

I thought all T206s were printed at the same location - and the brands/factories on the back were to match the packaging of the cigarettes.

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Posted By: NYHighlanderFan

I would love to know why only certain factories inserted cards...for instance Piedmont. Why would they advertise at least one baseball picture in each pack but then not insert them in every pack due to factory designation?

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

I believe all tobacco packaging or inserts had to identify the factory where the tobacco was produced due to prevailing law.

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Posted By: Matt

Thanks Dave! Where all T206s printed in the same place, or as Frank suggested, where they printed in different factories?

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Posted By: Aaron Conyers

Here is my overprint. Not sure what to think of the dotted lines?

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Posted By: Matt

Aaron - looks like it was glued into some notebook paper and when it was removed, some of the card stayed on the paper and some of the paper stayed on the card.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Matt...

I'm completely of the opinion that American Litho made ALL white border tobacco cards at one place.


When I talk of factory production moving, I'm talking about halting Piedmont production at factory 25, and moving it to factory 42.


The thing to do would be look at what factories are distributing series 150 cards, series 350 cards, and series 460 cards. Then see if a factory stopped distributing partway along the progression, or if one started at the end of the progression.

And, were the overprints done for a factory that had distributed series 150 cards... or were they for factories that commenced distribution later in the production sequence.


ONE card factory made the cards. Many cigarette factories inserted them into packages with cigarettes (plus Polar Bear for loose cut).

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Posted By: Matt

Frank - thanks for the clarification! Sounds like a question for Ted...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

FRANK W.....already answered you correctly.....the AMERICAN LITHOGRAPHIC CO. printed all the T206 cards.....
then shipped them out to the 17 various T-brand factories, where these cards were inserted in Cigarette packs.






TED Z

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Posted By: Matt

Frank asked a new question, which is what I was referring to in my post above. re-read his most recent post and you'll see he was wondering about overprints and which back series corresponded to which overprints and how that may have occurred.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The scroll overprints (Sweet Cap 150/649 and Sweet Cap 460/42) and the Factory changes were all printed
at American Litho. and then shipped out. American Litho. also printed the cigarette packs in sheet form and
shipped them out to the cigarette Factories.

The individual Cigarette Factories did not have the facilities to print this stuff. They were in the business of
producing and packaging their cigarette brand.

Everyone here has to realize that James B. Duke (American Tobacco Co.) and Joseph P. Knapp (founder of
American Litho.) were very close friends and business associates.
Virtually every printed artifact that was associated with ATC was produced by American Litho.



TED Z

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Posted By: Matt

thanks - that is understood.

Do you have a theory as to why overprinting was done, instead of printing them with the correct factories?

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