NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-24-2019, 11:24 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
Ryan
Ryan McCla.nahan
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 247
Default Team Issues and Rookie Cards

I've been curious lately about larger team issue premiums (like 1940's Brooklyn Dodgers, Cubs and Red Sox) -could some of these be considered the rookie cards of players like Pee Wee Reese or Duke Snider?

What constitutes a rookie card and how do collectors feel about team issued cards and premiums?

My own feeling is that the 8x10's, or odd sized stuff is difficult to display, but on the flipside, they're mostly cheap and provide a great way to obtain an otherwise difficult or expensive player.

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-24-2019, 01:25 PM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,200
Default Rookie Card?

There have been numerous discussions, on the forum, over the years and the only consensus is there is no consensus.
Here is an older thread concerning rookies...

http://forum.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141603


.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-24-2019, 08:25 PM
shagrotn77's Avatar
shagrotn77 shagrotn77 is offline
Andrew Mc.Gann
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 602
Default

Hi Ryan. If you get 10 replies to this thread, you'll probably get 10 different opinions. To me, that's part of the beauty of collecting - it's all about what does it for you. Personally, I think photos are photos and don't qualify as cards. I am, however, okay with postcards and exhibits qualifying as rookie cards. Again, just my dos centavos.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-24-2019, 09:25 PM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
Phil Garry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,817
Default

Ryan:

I also loved to pick up many of the 1940’s team issued photo pack singles when I was working on my HOF Rookies collection several years ago. These can certainly qualify as rookies or possibly even earliest collectibles for the appropriate player but would not be considered rookie cards because the items in question are clearly not cards.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-25-2019, 05:58 AM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

Post-war, but anyhow I would call Carlton and Seaver rookie year issues, not sure what I would call Murray, pre-rookie I guess although to me that connotes a minor league card.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg carltonpc.jpg (65.9 KB, 504 views)
File Type: jpg seaverpc.jpg (76.0 KB, 511 views)
File Type: jpg murray77.jpg (78.7 KB, 515 views)
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:09 PM
triwak's Avatar
triwak triwak is offline
Ken Wirt
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Durango, Colorado
Posts: 1,022
Default

Great cards, Peter!!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:43 PM
KMayUSA6060's Avatar
KMayUSA6060 KMayUSA6060 is offline
Kyle May
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 1,895
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat61 View Post
I've been curious lately about larger team issue premiums (like 1940's Brooklyn Dodgers, Cubs and Red Sox) -could some of these be considered the rookie cards of players like Pee Wee Reese or Duke Snider?

What constitutes a rookie card and how do collectors feel about team issued cards and premiums?

My own feeling is that the 8x10's, or odd sized stuff is difficult to display, but on the flipside, they're mostly cheap and provide a great way to obtain an otherwise difficult or expensive player.

Thanks.
You'll notice in the thread that Leon shared, the Veeck rookie is considered the 1952 St. Louis Browns Postcards. I believe that's outdated, and his actual rookie is considered the 1948 Cleveland TEAM ISSUE.

So yes, I would consider team issues to be the rookie card. Additionally, there's a large debate surrounding Babe Ruth's rookie card, whether or not the more regional Baltimore News(?) issue is his rookie or the nationally-released Sporting News(?) is his rookie. I would consider this to be a similar debate, and if you consider the Team Issue cards to be their rookie cards, perfect. Do what makes you happy with your collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
There have been numerous discussions, on the forum, over the years and the only consensus is there is no consensus.
Here is an older thread concerning rookies...

http://forum.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=141603


.
This thread has been bookmarked in my HoF spreadsheet for a while. I refer back to it constantly.
__________________
Need a spreadsheet to help track your set, player run, or collection? Check out Sheets4Collectors on Etsy.
https://www.etsy.com/shop/Sheets4Collectors

- Hall of Famers
Progress: 318/340 (93.53%)

- Grover Hartley PC
Needs: T207 Anonymous Factory 25 Back, 1914 New York Evening Sun Supplements, 1917 D328 Weil Baking Co., and (possibly) 1917 Merchant's Bakery

- Jim Thome PC

- Cleveland Indians Franchise Hall of Fame
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-25-2019, 01:53 PM
uyu906's Avatar
uyu906 uyu906 is offline
Rich
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South-central PA
Posts: 350
Default Murray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Post-war, but anyhow I would call Carlton and Seaver rookie year issues, not sure what I would call Murray, pre-rookie I guess although to me that connotes a minor league card.
Murray played all of the 1977 season with the Baltimore Orioles. That club issued photo is from Murray's rookie year. Topps, of course, did not print his rookie "card" until 1978.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:32 PM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
Phil Garry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,817
Default

Good choices, Peter. Seaver - Rookie Card, Murray - Rookie Card, Carlton - I think is a similar size to a postcard but I don’t recall it being one, either way, I think Rookie Card works there too.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:50 PM
bcbgcbrcb bcbgcbrcb is offline
Phil Garry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 6,817
Default

Sorry, Kyle. The ‘48 Veeck is an oversize paper premium and in no way meets the definition of a card so, therefore, it cannot be a Rookie Card. It is a Veeck Rookie and maybe earliest collectible.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-25-2019, 04:45 PM
h2oya311's Avatar
h2oya311 h2oya311 is offline
Derek Granger
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,383
Default

Here's my checklist for Veeck:

1930s Photo (High School Portrait)
1935 Press Photo (w/ Eleanor Raymond)
1943 Press Photo
1944 Press Photo
1945 Milwaukee Brewers Team Postcard
1946 Cleveland Team Photo Postcard
1948 Cleveland Team Issue
1948 Cleveland Team Issue 4-on-1 Picture Pack
1952 St. Louis Browns Postcards

I'd consider the '48 Cleveland Team Issue his individual rookie. Heck, SGC grades them...not cardboard stock, but earliest checklisted and standard issue with his image. Good in my book. Here are a few of my Veeck's:


__________________
...
http://imageevent.com/derekgranger

HOF "Earliest" Collection (Ideal - Indiv): 244/342 (71.4%)
1914 T330-2 Piedmont Art Stamps......: 114/119 (95.8%)
1923 V100 Willard's Chocolate............: 177/180 (98.3%)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-25-2019, 05:32 PM
JLange's Avatar
JLange JLange is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: philadelphia
Posts: 555
Default Mr Larry Doby

I count Larry Doby's 1947 Cleveland Indians Picture Pack photo as his true rookie card, or "earliest collectible" is probably a better way to say it. As much as I like the 1949 Bowman and 1949 Leaf cards, those came out 2yrs later! Really hard to argue with that.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1947 Team Issue Larry Doby v1.jpg (10.7 KB, 407 views)
__________________
Jason
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-25-2019, 06:25 PM
Copa7's Avatar
Copa7 Copa7 is offline
Chuck Zso.lnai
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: New York / Florida
Posts: 391
Default team issued rookie cards

So this was a topic of conversation in another forum.

I brought attention to the Russian pro hockey league which featured standard size hockey cards with Alex Ovechkin. To me, this was easily in every definition of rookie card.

While other players have debuted in leagues outside the big 4 - Warren Moon in the CFL and other like Jim Kelly and Reggie White in the USFL.

The point best presented here, is collect what you like.
__________________
Collecting vintage soccer
Collecting pre-war baseball
Collecting vintage horse racing (wanted: tobacco cards and pins)
Set in progress: 1994 Upper Deck World Cup autographed
Set in progress: 1938 Konig Fussball
Sub set in progress: 1910-12 Sweet Caporal pins - Philadelphia Athletics - 4 of 11 complete (need: Baker, Murphy, Plank, Krause, Davis)

Successful transactions:
aro13
edsj
commishbob
jpaol99
Gonzo,
abroom
Brianp-beme
Dboneesq
Chris Counts
xplainer
Bobbyw8469
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:11 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

A few alternative hockey rookie issues. The Roy is a year before his Topps/OPC.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg dryden.jpg (75.3 KB, 372 views)
File Type: jpg lafleur.jpg (77.0 KB, 375 views)
File Type: jpg roy.jpg (73.5 KB, 376 views)
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:17 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,268
Default

And a Gretzky alternative, not to mention one of the Russian Ovechkins mentioned above (although I think this is from a subset).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg gretzkyjd.jpg (74.0 KB, 374 views)
File Type: jpg ovechkin.jpg (77.5 KB, 370 views)
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:07 PM
KMayUSA6060's Avatar
KMayUSA6060 KMayUSA6060 is offline
Kyle May
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 1,895
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by h2oya311 View Post
Here's my checklist for Veeck:

1930s Photo (High School Portrait)
1935 Press Photo (w/ Eleanor Raymond)
1943 Press Photo
1944 Press Photo
1945 Milwaukee Brewers Team Postcard
1946 Cleveland Team Photo Postcard
1948 Cleveland Team Issue
1948 Cleveland Team Issue 4-on-1 Picture Pack
1952 St. Louis Browns Postcards

I'd consider the '48 Cleveland Team Issue his individual rookie. Heck, SGC grades them...not cardboard stock, but earliest checklisted and standard issue with his image. Good in my book. Here are a few of my Veeck's:


Impressive checklist.
__________________
Need a spreadsheet to help track your set, player run, or collection? Check out Sheets4Collectors on Etsy.
https://www.etsy.com/shop/Sheets4Collectors

- Hall of Famers
Progress: 318/340 (93.53%)

- Grover Hartley PC
Needs: T207 Anonymous Factory 25 Back, 1914 New York Evening Sun Supplements, 1917 D328 Weil Baking Co., and (possibly) 1917 Merchant's Bakery

- Jim Thome PC

- Cleveland Indians Franchise Hall of Fame
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-28-2019, 07:11 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,200
Default

+1
I like the term earliest collectible more than I do "card" for some of the items.
While I consider postcards as cards, I agree with Phil, photo packs aren't cards. They are photos (pictures), like it says.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb View Post
Ryan:

I also loved to pick up many of the 1940’s team issued photo pack singles when I was working on my HOF Rookies collection several years ago. These can certainly qualify as rookies or possibly even earliest collectibles for the appropriate player but would not be considered rookie cards because the items in question are clearly not cards.
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:59 PM
Mungo Hungo Mungo Hungo is offline
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leon View Post
+1
I like the term earliest collectible more than I do "card" for some of the items.
While I consider postcards as cards, I agree with Phil, photo packs aren't cards. They are photos (pictures), like it says.
I'm glad to see people say this. I've found it frustrating that over time Beckett and others have gradually expanded their listings to the point where virtually anything depicting a player can show up in their online catalogue or Trading Card Database--even pages from photo albums and yearbooks.

Like everyone else on here, I certainly have no issue with those things being collectibles, but if anything and everything is classified as a card, the term itself has no meaning.

On a more specific note, one of the problems I have with classifying team-issued photos as cards--besides the fact that they are really just photos--is the lack of any inherent restrictions on them being reprinted. Most true cards have identifiers (bios, stats, copyrights, etc.) tying them to a specific year, and the licenses probably are good for only the given year anyway. But team-issued photos generally have no year identifiers--and that's on purpose. The teams can and often do distribute those things over multiple years. In fact, they presumably would have no restriction against reprinting team-issued photos even decades after the fact.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-30-2019, 07:57 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
Ryan
Ryan McCla.nahan
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mungo Hungo View Post
I'm glad to see people say this. I've found it frustrating that over time Beckett and others have gradually expanded their listings to the point where virtually anything depicting a player can show up in their online catalogue or Trading Card Database--even pages from photo albums and yearbooks.

Like everyone else on here, I certainly have no issue with those things being collectibles, but if anything and everything is classified as a card, the term itself has no meaning.

On a more specific note, one of the problems I have with classifying team-issued photos as cards--besides the fact that they are really just photos--is the lack of any inherent restrictions on them being reprinted. Most true cards have identifiers (bios, stats, copyrights, etc.) tying them to a specific year, and the licenses probably are good for only the given year anyway. But team-issued photos generally have no year identifiers--and that's on purpose. The teams can and often do distribute those things over multiple years. In fact, they presumably would have no restriction against reprinting team-issued photos even decades after the fact.
This is an interesting topic and I'm glad to see collectors chime in. This more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to believe that "Picture Packs" and larger team issued sets should be classified as Premiums.

I believe that they do have a place and in many cases, can provide a great opportunity and in some cases the only opportunity to add a difficult or expensive player to your collection.

Last edited by topcat61; 09-30-2019 at 10:24 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-01-2019, 12:09 PM
triwak's Avatar
triwak triwak is offline
Ken Wirt
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Durango, Colorado
Posts: 1,022
Default

Right. How the hell else would I ever expect to get THIS guy, lol??! (Actually, this photo is postcard size. But who's counting)?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 316. John Schuerholz.jpg (71.7 KB, 178 views)

Last edited by triwak; 10-01-2019 at 12:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-01-2019, 01:13 PM
h2oya311's Avatar
h2oya311 h2oya311 is offline
Derek Granger
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,383
Default

C'mon Ken! Don't you have this one yet???

__________________
...
http://imageevent.com/derekgranger

HOF "Earliest" Collection (Ideal - Indiv): 244/342 (71.4%)
1914 T330-2 Piedmont Art Stamps......: 114/119 (95.8%)
1923 V100 Willard's Chocolate............: 177/180 (98.3%)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-02-2019, 10:47 AM
triwak's Avatar
triwak triwak is offline
Ken Wirt
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Durango, Colorado
Posts: 1,022
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by h2oya311 View Post
C'mon Ken! Don't you have this one yet???
LOL, Derek!! Funny that you ask. There was an autographed version of that Royals Picture Pack photo on ebay a couple of weeks ago, that went for $200. I DID have some interest... but not THAT much interest!! Since I only care that the card was issued during the HOFer's active period, I figured my "photo card" was adequate, haha!

Edited to add: If someone here bought that Royals Picture Pack photo, no offense intended. Definitely Schuerholz's rookie "card."

Last edited by triwak; 10-02-2019 at 11:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:10 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is offline
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,200
Default

It is a friendly discussion. I think it is politically correct to call a Picture Pack a collectible more than a card. I still have some pic packs laying around. They are neat and mostly inexpensive ways to collect some neat collectibles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by triwak View Post
LOL, Derek!! Funny that you ask. There was an autographed version of that Royals Picture Pack photo on ebay a couple of weeks ago, that went for $200. I DID have some interest... but not THAT much interest!! Since I only care that the card was issued during the HOFer's active period, I figured my "photo card" was adequate, haha!

Edited to add: If someone here bought that Royals Picture Pack photo, no offense intended. Definitely Schuerholz's rookie "card."
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Show your team issues Exhibitman Basketball / Cricket / Tennis Cards Forum 0 04-26-2015 03:54 PM
Thoughts on Pele Rookie cards and some of his other issues skelly Hockey, Olympic, Auto Racing And All Other Cards 9 08-30-2013 11:01 AM
Regional/Team Issues Archive Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) 11 09-25-2008 02:22 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:59 PM.


ebay GSB