Re-Backed T206 Chance......

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here's a new one......a 150/350 series Red Chance portrait card with a Piedmont 460 back ? ?
An obvious re-backed card, even the seller admits that this card feels thick. Well, I guess
selling it for $20 didn't fool too many. Now, it will be interesting to see if the winner lists it
on ebay and continues this fraud ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-Frank-Chance-reprint_W0QQitemZ130187361971


TED Z

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Ted - I don't think this is rebacked - just a straight out reprint.

The lettering on the front is blue and the back has definite marks at the bottom where "reprint" was erased.

I would have assumed it is just a reprint and not a rebacked card.

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Posted By: peter ullman

that's an interesting re-print as the only sure give away...to me...is the type font and color. the rest looks pretty darn good!!!

pete ullman

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Posted By: Anthony S.

Another dead giveaway is the bottom of the back of the card. It doesn't have a factory designation and the area where "reprint" originally appeared has been erased.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

oops, double message

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Ted...good call!

This is an alterations you CAN tell from a scan.

At the "very least" it has been rebacked (or refaced). The card doctor didn't even bother to trim the edges.

I would also question and the blue lettering, lack of frame and print to name a few. The back looks to be a reprint with the bottom "reprint" lettering removed...I would defer to our specialst Ted on that though.



"the rest looks pretty darn good!!!"

Oh no...this is bad in so many ways.








Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: fkw

Nothing on that card is old, front or back. It is all modern and basically a doctored reprint card. Like others have said, front caption is all wrong, and back "reprint" has been scuffed off.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey guys.....My screen doesn't show a blue lettering caption (maybe I need a new screen)

But, to me the obvious clue is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for this red Chance to have a 460 back of any kind.
And, what makes you think that what was erased was the word "reprint" ? I have seen quite a few T206's
with the bottom line (Factory information) erased....for whatever reason.

TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

this card has so many problems, at first glance i know it's funny just by the huge borders, way too big...blue type face, no factory designation...not even close.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

If you look at the top right side of the back where a fleck of paper is missing, you can also see the paper stock doesn't look right. Also, that erase mark is right where "reprint" is printed.

I also don't think those marks are overlap front a rebacked card - I think this is just the way these reprints look.

I have to personally disagree with both Ted and Kevin - I still feel the back is just as fake as the front. Maybe I'm wrong but I do not think this is a reback as I said above.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The two factors that lead me to think this is a Re-Back are......

1.....I've seen many reprinted T206's; but, never any with a Piedmont 460 back. They are usually have Piedmont or Sweet Cap 150
or 350, or Old Mill backs.

2.....The seller's admission that this card felt thick.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

...a card like this isn't worth posting about.

While the front/back combinations may seem the most obvious problem with this card -- and with all due respect to the experts who know these combinations by memory -- if you actually need to reach for the back/front permissible combination guide when you're staring at this one on the computer, then you ought not be purchasing baseball cards on your computer.

This one is fake from the color and font of the name, the borders on the card, the lack of a frame and color and width of a frame around the image itself, the lack of a factory designation and a scar where the word reprint probably was. Etc. Etc.

To me, this is like looking at a red printed Polar Bear backed Demmitt with a N.Y. designation and saying the main reason its fake is because Demmitt NY wasn't issued with a Polar Bear back.



_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"I have to personally disagree with both Ted and Kevin - I still feel the back is just as fake as the front. Maybe I'm wrong but I do not think this is a reback as I said above."


Let me try to help. Fake yes but just re: the subject of rebacking, here is a close-up that show the two different side edges clearly defined. Take it from one who has rebacked and refaced many cards, this one is pretty simple. Hope this helps.





"a card like this isn't worth posting about."

Sure it is! There are many things that quite a few collectors can learn from this single card.




Kevin

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Kevin - that helps - I see what you're saying now. Ted - the seller says the card feels "heavy", not "thick". That being said, I trust your opinion on T206 (hence why i email you questions!). I still thought the back, whether or not re-backed, is a fake too and those erase marks just look like so many other attempts to conceal that reprint lettering.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

T206Collector

Your statement........

"While the front/back combinations may seem the most obvious problem with this card -- and with all due respect to the
experts who know these combinations by memory -- if you actually need to reach for the back/front permissible combination
guide when you're staring at this one on the computer, then you ought not be purchasing baseball cards on your computer."

Is the most DANGEROUS thinking regarding T206's that has been said in along time. With the ever-increasing scamming of
T206's that are getting Graded in recent years....this one takes the cake.

Look at the PSA5 graded Cobb (bat on) with a Sweet cap 460 back in the on-going Thread today. How about the infamous
Mathewson (portrait) with a Red HINDU back that SGC graded a few years ago. Just to cite two of many such RE-BACKED
T206's.

Look, if you choose to remain above the significance of front/back knowledge of these T206's, that's your prerogative. But,
don't go telling the rest of us that it's foolish.

And, I personally don't have a...."need to reach for the back/front permissible combination guide". After, 26 years
of collecting T206's, I know from what series every card belongs to.

TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

"This one is fake from the color and font of the name, the borders on the card, the lack of a frame and color and width of a frame around the image itself, the lack of a factory designation and a scar where the word reprint probably was. Etc. Etc.

To me, this is like looking at a red printed Polar Bear backed Demmitt with a N.Y. designation and saying the main reason its fake is because Demmitt NY wasn't issued with a Polar Bear back."

Ted, i actually do agree with Paul here...

your front/back knowledge (which commands much respect), comes in very handy when the card in question is re-backed or looks real and has many people stumped...but in this case, it is such an obvious fake...not even really worth a discussion

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

MIKE S

Here are the links to two Graded T206's....that are fraudulent RE-BACK's. And, about a year ago one of the nicest members of
Net54 bought a Graded Cobb (bat off) with a 150 Series back.....an impossible F/B combo. The scam artists have perfected this
re-backing "art" to the degree that these fake cards are either getting by the professional graders, or the scammers have gotten
so good they can also crack and restore the PSA and SGC plastics without you knowing it.

But, one thing (so far) is that they are not smart enough to know which T206 fronts are compatible with which backs. As illustra-
ted with these three examples I have given you.

Given time they will educate themselves....and, then there will be a big problem that will really rock this hobby.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31718&item=150193114423

http://www.t206museum.com/page/periodical_23.html

You can agree with Paul all you want. And, I will continue to try to be preemptive in "flushing-out" any BB card that I see is a fake.
I wish I had seen that Cobb I mentioned before our Net54 member won it from ebay. I would have instantly cautioned him.

In this case....the red Chance....as I said, it was not noticeable on my screen that the lettering is not the normal color of a T206.
But, an instant red flag went up when I saw the Piedmont 460 back.

TED Z

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Posted By: T206Collector

Don't get me wrong. Very useful for confirming the authenticity of a card that appears to the trained eye to be real. Just not necessary with an obvious fake, which this one here is.

<<your front/back knowledge (which commands much respect), comes in very handy when the card in question is re-backed or looks real and has many people stumped...but in this case, it is such an obvious fake...not even really worth a discussion>>

This is all I was trying to say.




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Visit http://www.t206collector.com for my blog, interviews, articles, card galleries and more!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ted- we're talking apples and oranges here...your missing the point.

i am the first one to say that i am in awe of your F/B combo knowledge, and it comes in handy so many times...

all i was trying to say (and i think paul too), was that in a case like this, when it is so obviously a fake, one need not even think about F/B combos...it is a bad fake (or reprint)...that's all, no hard feelings.

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Posted By: Rob

"but in this case, it is such an obvious fake...not even really worth a discussion"


i'm sure we have alot of "rookie" lurkers here on the board that can learn by seeing these auctions pointed out. True, probably 95% of the regulars on the board would know within 15 seconds of looking that something was wrong, but we were all rookies once and I think pointing them out (at least occasionally) is helpful, even when they are obvious.

Rob

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

".....we're talking apples and oranges here...your missing the point."

You are the one missing the greater point......I presented to you three illustrations of costly fakes. And, what is
your response to them ?.....NOTHING.....Most of you guys put a lot of your $$$$ behind your confidence in these
Graded cards. But lately, an ever increasing number of them are being proven as fakes. Let's not forget the T206
Joe Doyle error that SGC graded a few years back that was proven to be a fake.

So, some of us are concerned enough and take the time to expose these fakes......but, for some unexplainable
reason there are some people on this Net that find it necessary to be contrarians.

I just don't get it.

TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

ted, we usually see eye to eye on most issues. i hear what you're saying regarding the cobb, that is scary, yes, i agree, and your F/B theories will certainly help in many cases, especially like that one...

but, i'll once again simply repeat myself...

the chance is obviously a fake from first glance, regardless of F/B combo...that was my point...on THAT particular card...and on other cards that are obviously fakes or reprints at first glance...that was it...no need to throw me in a category of collectors that buys the holder...i buy the card.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted,you need to take suggestions betters,i was going to say criticism but by the way they worded this,you cant even call it criticizing. I could tell by the small picture at the top of the ebay page the card was a fake,it didnt look right from the start,I actually thought at first you had the wrong link up thats how bad the card looked. Thats all they are pointing out. If you had to prioritize finding problems with a t206,the front back combo wouldnt be the first problem with this card for someone new. The fact the card is a reprint to begin with is the biggest problem here.They could put any back they want on this card with the way the front of it looks,its not going to pass the inspection of someone who knows t206s. They are basically saying the back of the card shouldnt even come into play with this card due to the front. I hope you dont take my response wrong either,im just giving you another opinion on this and hoping you see what theyre saying.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

thanks John...you worded it more elequantly than i did.

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Posted By: PC

If you only looked at the front, you know it's fake.

If you only looked at the back, and you know the back combinations, you know it is a fake.

It's Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi. You go with what works for you, and unfortunately, it all tastes bad (these scammers are taking all the fun out of it).

Certain people don't like to be questioned, period. My advice, don't tease the tiger, and she won't leap at you. Unless of course, the tiger feels like it.


Kevin -- it looks like the card is rebacked, but could the edges appear that way because someone sanded them (roughed them up) on a angle? Hard to see why someone would have rebacked a fake front with a fake back.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Kevin -- it looks like the card is rebacked, but could the edges appear that way because someone sanded them (roughed them up) on a angle? Hard to see why someone would have rebacked a fake front with a fake back."



You are right, makes little or no sense but it is rebacked for some odd reason and the job wasn't finished. At this level of novice doctoring, sanding would leave obvious fiber strands and exposed white raw cardboard. Also sanding or trimming would typically not show a distinct line in those areas.

Indeed, a very strange card to be altered.

Kevin

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I guess it could be that this card may have originally had a red Piedmotn back or something similar to that. Someone thend ecided to at least put the correct color of back on the card.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Borders are too thick and font isn't close, blatant reprint.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

All you guys are....MISSING MY MAJOR POINT....that is that this is a RE-BACKED T206 card (albeit,
a reprint)

I will repeat......I have never seen a T206 reprint with a Piedmont 460 back......have you ? ?

There is an ever increasing re-backing of T206's in recent years that I am trying to bring to your
attention. Obviously, this one is not a big deal....HOWEVER.....

CONSIDER these recent six examples that come to mind......

Matty (portrait) with Red HINDU.........SGC graded

Cobb (bat on) with Sweet Cap 460.....PSA graded

Cobb (bat off) with Piedmont 150.......PSA graded

Cobb (green) with Red HINDU............BVG graded

Cobb (red) with DRUM.................graded (don't recall Co.)

Cobb (red) with Piedmont 150.......un-graded

This is just a fraction of the recent Re-Backs out there. Many more exist; and, uninformed buyers
have paid big $$$$$ for some of these. I am simply trying to save someone on Net54 a lot of grief.
Who knows, maybe one of you will be the next buyer duped by one of these re-backs on ebay (or
wherever) that are in a graded plastic ? ?

Dan McKee....this doesn't apply to you.

If "busting my chops" on this thread makes your day....fine, that doesn't bother with me. I'm guilty
of not taking a closer look at the color of the lettering in this Chance card's caption. My attention
was more importantly directed to the wrong back on this card.

Doesn't anyone read the backs of BB cards anymore ? There's a lot of great information to be found.

TED Z

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"If "busting my chops" on this thread makes your day....fine, that doesn't bother with me. I'm guilty
of not taking a closer look at the color of the lettering in this Chance card's caption. My attention
was more importantly directed to the wrong back on this card.

Doesn't anyone read the backs of BB cards anymore ? There's a lot of great information to be found."



Ted you are right, why would anyone "bust your chops" when you are just trying to help? Your not asking for anything in return either but maybe a nod or a thanks. I would personally like to thank you, as I nod my head in your direction, for the effort you have put forth to explain what it is you do best.

Grading companies do not know everything...sometimes they just know the basics. We must, at times, understand that many have a hobby specialty that goes well beyond the basics, maybe even obsessive. We need to tap into those collective resources.

Ted, If I ever needed to know if a certain back/front was possible (and some day I will), I most certainly would not go to anyone but you...it would be idiotic to do otherwise.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Guys,
This thread is a nightmare.... Everybody is trying to help the rookies and getting in petty fights in the process. Sure the card is an obvious reprint, but Ted and Kevin chose to explain why. Not everyone understands the differences, so cut them some slack. Besides, Lots of scammers are starting to reback reprint fronts with real backs to increase there sales.
Lets fight the crooks... not the good guys. Be well Brian

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Posted By: scott brockelman

If you did then you will see this is not even a real T206 back. There is no factory number. There is a place lower where reprint has been removed, but this would be too low for the factory number which you would not want to remove anyway. Bottom line, it's not rebacked with a real T206 back.

There is also a T206 Cobb on ebay that is a no question reprint also which appears blantantly rebacked, however it has no factory number either.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-11-T206-TY-COBB-BASEBALL-CARD-97-PIEDMONT-BACK_W0QQitemZ180204083565QQihZ008QQcategoryZ86839 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I am guessing they are covering up the wrong color backs from one reprint set with correct color backs from another.

Scott

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Posted By: PC

Kevein -- maybe it's semantics, but rebacking implies that the original back was removed and replaced. Isn't it more likely that the front and backs of these cards were produced separately, and then not sized properly, or were glued together poorly?

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Posted By: Scott Levy

Ted Z...

Unfortunately I can tell you from personal experience that the rebacked cobb drum was first in a BVG holder, then in a PSA holder.

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Posted By: leon

Oh you are so correct. I wanted to do the BIN on that card on ebay but the then President of Beckett said, in essence, he wouldn't stand behind the card in their holder. He told me that if they put it in a holder then it was good...period...And of course he was wrong. There is a thread on this board about what I went through with him... regards

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here's the link to your post in the prior Thread on re-backed T206's regarding the Cobb/Drum card.....

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1180744157/last-1180770222/

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I had already posted that Red Cobb fake 5 days ago without too much interest on this board.
It ends in 2 hours from now and some "sucker" is going to buy it for at least $260.-
Presently, there are 16 bids on it, and 4 of the bidders should know better (since they are not
ebay newbies).

I did mention the lack of a Factory # and that the bottom line was erased. But, I've seen that
before on a few legitimate T206's, so it's not totally uncommon (for whatever reason).

TED Z

Link to prior Net54 post......

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1199842061/last-1199915951/Another+day....another++T206+Cobb+fake>

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Posted By: Steve

Ted your points were not in vain, I'm sure many that have read this thread do not have the knowledge that many here that have replied do. For those that lurk and try to gain knowledge your points are well taken and I would assume appreciated.

Steve

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Posted By: howard

The little I know about pre-war cards I have learned from this board. I know I still have a lot to learn so I appreciate all the posts about counterfeit cards. When such a card is outed I eagerly read the comments as to why they are fake (thanks to you all I can tell myself sometimes) and have come to expect that ALL of the signs that a card is fake will be pointed out. Therefore I believe that just because the front of a card is obviously fake there is still good reason to point out flaws with the back. Thanks,

Howard

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Just so you know Ted I wasnt busting your chops and apparently no one else was but this thread proves once again that you have no patience when anyone else questions you,and in this case its supposedly questioning you because no one is. You may provide an abundant amount of information but you really dont know how to handle conversing with people online.You keep telling everyone else they miss the point when no one is missing the point except you. No one here is missing the point,you saw a card that was rebacked and pointed it out. Other people saw a blatant reprint on front with no factory number on the back and pointed that out. Thats not questioning you or missing the point. You get so defensive when people question something you say that you arent even realizing no one is questioning you,rather theyre expanding on what you wrote

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

It's very interesting that you bring up your point......"For those that lurk and try to gain knowledge...."

As, I will tell you that since I posted this thread I have received 8 emails from Net54 "readers" who asked
intelligent questions and/or thanked me for informing them in on what to look for on T206's in order to feel
confident that they are acquiring a legitimate card.

TED Z

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Ted,

I often see you post messages that lament a lack of comments regarding a previous post you've made. That's kind of ironic, because as John writes, many time responses that don't solely agree with what you've said draw some nasty retaliation from you.

I for one appreciate your knowledge on certain subjects, but aside from this comment, I'll rarely respond to anything you post simply because it's not worth the possible confrontational response.

My guess is that you truly enjoy this hobby, but it's often hard to tell because of the ire you're quick to exhibit on this board.

C'est la vie, I guess.

Rob

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Ted are you saying you have seen real T206's with no factory #? While I have not seen as many as you, I have examined a few thousand and have NEVER seen an authentic T206 without a factory #. Do you have one to show?

The point I was trying to make is that these people are covering up the incorrect color reprints with correct color reprint backs, they are not using real T206 backs. But after all these posts I am sure they will probably turn to that.

Scott

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Are you alluding to the various colored wrong backs such as this Lundgren reprint I show here.......






If so, I fully understand what you are saying....and, this has become more of a recent phenomena than the
re-backing of legitimate fronts with tougher backs (e.g. DRUM, Red HINDU, etc.) to enhance the value of a
given T206, that has been going on for several years.

The handful (or so) of legitimate T206's whose back's Factory # have been erased or scratched out that I
have seen, I have long ago sold in my T206 "junk box". I haven't seen any in several years.

TED Z

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Posted By: Steve

This card may have very well been an obvious fake to many of you guys here, but I can assure you that it is not to many that are not in the 'in crowd' here. If anything it was these collectors that Ted was helping. Maybe inadvertantly but helping them nontheless.

Steve D

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Steve if youre new and looking at t206 cards the first thing you should know is what youre looking at and to do that you have to know what the cards look like. This card has a reprinted front so even if it had a real back on it,the card is a reprint. When taking into consideration whether a t206 card is real or not most people who collect them can look at this card and see the front is fake and that comes from experience with them and usuaully years of looking at them.


Now if this card had a real front and was rebacked with a real back then all it would make the card is,is a rebacked card. It would still be 100% vintage but not an accurate example of what came from the factory.

Most people who collect t206s dont know offhand if this was the correct series for this card because thats a more advanced way to tell if a card has been altered. This particular card however does not have a real front or back,thats 2 strikes against it and that should tell you to stay away from it. You should never buy a t206 with no factory designation unless its because of back damage and youre 100% certain that it isnt a reprint to start off with.

The problem with what Ted pointed out isnt that he is wrong,hes not. Its the fact that he proved it was fake by using a highly expert way when it didnt need to be used. The telltale signs for both experts and new collectors for this card is the front of the card and before you as a new collector try to learn what backs come with which cards,you should first know what youre looking at. If you dont know by looking at the front of the card that its a fake then you most certainly dont need to know what backs are possible.Its like teaching a child algebra before he learns addition and subtraction.

This thread is actually good that it turned out this way,especially if that many people are writing Ted to thank him. I hope they take time to learn why the front is wrong first,thats the most important thing when spotting t206 fakes. 95% of cards that are wrong can be spotted using the front only,and usually from a decent scan.


Then they find out why the back is wrong,sometimes you can find wrong colors that just arent available like a blue Old Mill back or a green sweet caporal.

Finally if you know what youre looking at then you can refer back to the thread at another time and see what Ted wrote about the series and why some backs arent possible with some fronts. The more people who know what theyre looking at as far as what the card should look like the better for the hobby.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Look, you and I and your Dad have had some great conversations in the past about BB cards and Antique cars at the Philly Show at
Ft Washington. So, let's try to maintain that friendship and quit this bickering. We both know and appreciate our T206's and let us
just focus on trying to impart that knowledge to help newcomers to collecting these neat little BB cards.

Give my best regards to your Dad......I'd like to see you guys in Reading the 1st weekend in March.

I'll sign off with your Dad's nickname for me....T-Rex TED

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Its possible we could show up for the sunday show. From my house at the shore its too long of a ride but if im out at his house its a little over an hour and a half. I might have to ask the saturday people if there's any old judges out there to make the trip really worth it

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

After I set-up on Friday, I check-out every booth at the Philly Show, so if you want, I can tell you by
Friday evening what is available. And, if it's worth your trip.

TED Z

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Posted By: MVSNYC

i'll probably make the trip to Reading this time, as well...we'll all have a big group hug...