Lipset

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I won lot number 11! I won it, I won it, I won it, I won it, I won it, I won it, I won it, I won it, I won it, I won it, I won it.....

The Dummy Hoy Old Judge with Buck Barker's handwriting all over the back.

ThankyouThankyouthankyouthankyou!




(Don't mind me. It's what I sold all those verschlungener cards for on ebay.)

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Posted By: JC

Nice score on it Julie... I used to say I won stuff too, until a friend of mine said NO, you were just willing to pay more than anyone else wanted to... I Think I scored the Big Eater lot 7 (Thank You Leon) and was the Underbidder on Lot 3 and 13... I think Lew and Barry are two of my favorites...

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

since a good friend of mine was very interested in this card till the price got too high i was a little perplexed by the grade of it. EXmt front but with writing on the back so its just EX? It would just be common sense in the first place that a card with so much writing isnt Ex condition,but a 117 year old card that was obviously well handled at one point in its life probably wouldnt be exmt anyway. I doubt Buck Barker used tweezers and gloves when he was writing all that info on the card.

Obviously i know the story behind Hoy but he shouldnt be getting more than alot of hall of famers would go for.Ive seen enough of his cards for sale to know hes not the toughest card in the set

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I had no IDEA what the card (lot 11) would go for. I knew that since it's a "Barker Old Judge," (in a Lipset auction!) it probably wouldn't be cheap. I really don't think, though, that the price (2301.00 bef 10% and shipping) reflects the Lemke price of--=GASP--4.5+K+ in the 2004 catalogue. It's hard to bid for an Old Judge with Barker's handwriting in a Lipset auction--but also, it's the logical place to find one!

I actually had an eye on lot 10--the pale OJ Griffith--as well but decided before 6 PM yesterday evening that I might not have the dough for both cards (as it happens, I would have had, with nothing left over for Sloate). I have no 19th century Griffiths, and I think the OJ is about all she wrote. Anybody know who won it?

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Posted By: Julie

congratulations! Also, number 13, the N173 Harry Wright would be wonderful to have, but I'll NEVER have that kind of dough again...have to be content with the two Harper's wood engravings I have with him and George, and the P and S I bought when I was (as soon as I got) rich, a year ago December. It's all gone now,
well spent.

And thanks AGAIN, Jay M, for the Peck and Snyder! It's one of the true joys of my life--which is getting more joyful all the time!

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Posted By: warshawlaw

all that love isn't free.

My 2cents worth on grading: an ex-mt card with writing on the back is a f-vg card (depending on severity), regardless of whose writing it is. That doesn't diminish the desirability of the card per se, but it is accurate technical grading.

Personally, I think a card ex-Halper, ex-Barker or ex-Burdick is a value-added item, not a detriment. I would not be surprised to see the idea of provenance catch on with some group of collectors in the not too distant future. A card marked this way just has a smaller market, like an autographed card.

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Posted By: prewarsports

I have never understood why people care who used to own a baseball card. Unless an item is autographed and it helps prove authenticity, I dont see why an N172 is worth any more because Buck Barker owned it. After all, the provanance of all baseball cards are set to begin with; all Old Judge cards are "ex-Goodwin" etc. So 50 years down the line some old guy who liked to write on his cards gathered up a whole bunch of them and they are worth more? How would you ever prove that something was ex-Barker from a set he didn't write all over? I have several T207 cards which came from the estate of Smokey Joe Wood. Anyone who wants to pay me a premium for those please e mail me. You can call them "ex-Smokey" or "ex-Wood" when you resell them if you want but I guarantee you wont get a penny more for them than the same T207 without the provenance.

If I am missing something please fill me in, but I just dont get it when it comes to baseball cards. It's the same exact thing regardless of who owned it before you did.

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Posted By: brian p

I have never cared that much about who owned my cards before me. But I do own several of Buck Barker cards and love the fact that they were used to store biographical information for his various projects to identify players within sets that he helped catalog. All those lists we use in the catalogues, with players names, had to come from somewhere, and evidently ol' Buck must have worked countless hours so that people like us could easily know what is out there. I could give a flying leap if this makes them more valuable--in the past, these cards usually go for less because of the writing. So much the better for a true collector interested in the history of this hobby.

Then again, I actually prefer blank cards to have writing on them. A blank back is pretty boring--stick a grocery list or a crayon drawing on it, and you've got a card full of character on both sides.

Brian

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Posted By: JC

Yes, I have to agree that having writing of the "Old" owners name would not excite me and probally keep me from bidding high on it. Last I checked, PSA uses the term MK for marked on those? I will say, when I collect old postcards, it is much nicer to get one with a 1 cent stamp on it and read what the people wrote on the backs. JUST THINK, if Lew Lipset marked every card he has ever owned, with a LEW or LL stamp on the back, Would that be a primium? Wonder how many of us would have Lew's name in our collection... I know I do.

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

I have a Buck Barker T204 with a vg front,paid $65
got the same player also with a vg front but no writing,paid $140

If i ever sold the one with his writing on it id describe it as fair condition and expect a fair condition price and if i had to keep just one of them,id keep the one thats in Exmt and sell the other 2 but if it wasnt for the 3rd one id definitely keep the one without writing

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Posted By: Julie

Barker cards not only used to belong to a great collector, but to a time when collecting was a whole different animal, and the blank back of a card was a dandy place to store information--where better? It sort of puts our modern being-wrapped-up with condition sensitivity to shame.
I don't care how much it's worth; it's worth a lot to me! But I should point out that if I bid 2301 on the card, someone else has to have bid about 2200 (I never offered a limit bid, and bid altogether very sparingly).
I have one other Barker card, my Zeenut McMullen (his only card). I have two other Hoys--both Old Judges. But I spoke about those before--or at least one of them.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Are you trying to corner the N172 market, Julie?

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Posted By: Julie

He was a severely handlicapped major leaguer, and a dandy ball player: hitter fielder and base stealer, at the same time. His was my first 19th century card, so I owe him one on that score, too.
He PROBABY was responsible for the initiation of hand signals in the game--without which modern baseball would be a total confusion. Any speculations
and reports that he was are enhanced by the certainly that Hoy DID teach American Sign Language to as many fellow players as he could, and married a schoolteacher for the deaf (both of them were completely deaf).
He provided me with a small opening into the deaf community by introducing--forget how--Steve Sandy of Ohio, who is a Hoy researcher, and deaf. It was to him that I gave away th second Old Judge Hoy ever I owned. Giving cards away is a real GAS! I remember the whole day so well: I was going to make him a xerox--as he had asked me to do, and then I stopped by the Coluseum to get some tickets with the card in my purse, and looked through the cracks in the fence at The Field. "A xerox? I thought. Why don't you stick the card in the envelope? He wants it more than you do!"

Hoy lived to be 99, bridging the gap between the 19th century and the modern era.

In Lipset's auction where I won my first (permanent )Hoy, I learned how NOT to bid--I must have bid 20 times on that card, untill Lew called me and said "Julie, stop bidding! You're inflating the price!"

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

I guess the answer was "no."

By the way, I'll send you my address in case you ever get in to a giving mood again.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

In addition to the people in this thread who've said that they find having a card owned by a "famous" collector to be enjoyable, which is proof enough, every other major collectable field (but especially art) assigns a premium for provenance. Card buyers are even starting do it too: what about the most famous card in the world? I remember an interview with Mike Gidwitz, who bought the T206 PSA 8 Wagner after McNall and Gretzky sold it [we now pause for MW to chime in that it is trimmed and PSA slabbed a trimmed card:)], and he was of the (correct) view that the upside on the card was even greater in his hands than it was before The Great One owned it, in part because its provenance would generate a certain notoriety and buzz when he went to sell it.

Taken to its logical conclusion, your argument would negate virtually every aspect of celebrity collecting. I mean, why should I want to own a scrap of paper or an old cancelled bank check with someone's writing on it, just because that someone is Babe Ruth? Why would I want to own an ugly black bird just because it is the "Maltese Falcon"? Why did someone pay big bucks for Ty Cobb's dentures from the Halper collection? Why was trash from Andy Warhol's estate auctioned off for big bucks? The answer is the same: collectability. Some people consider it to be interesting and desirable to acquire things owned by famous people. My point was that pioneering collectors have a certain degree of fame, and therefore I would not be surprised to someday see people pay a premium for an item from the personal collection of a hobby pioneer, especially if it has that person's handwriting on it. It isn't for everyone, but if there are a few people out there who care, the item will have a premium value.

Come on, admit it: if you found Jefferson Burdick's personal copy of an early ACC with his notations written in it, you would expect to sell it for a huge premium based on the famous annotations.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

will you send me a free Cobb

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Posted By: Julie

will you send me a free Radbourne? Make it the N173, huh?

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Posted By: Syphilis, damn it

.....