E98 OLD PUT Backed Survey

[Tim Kindler]

I thought I would start this as a seperate thread because I think it might have gotten buried in the recent thread about E98s.
I wanted to try to get a comprehensive checklist of all known E98s that have an Old Put Stamp on them so that it would add to the provenance of the existing ones that exist. This checklist will help when "newly discovered to the hobby" Old Puts appear. I'm not saying that any new Old Puts to the market automatically means that they are fakes, but as Leon stated in the thread about overprints that "provenance" will come into play in the future as overprints like an Old Put are discovered. For example, I have the "provenance" well documented on the 6 Old Puts that I own with pictures and documentation from auction houses.

So here is what I know currently exists at this point. Please chime in with any other additional information:

Most Old Put stamped E98s have a red background, but at least 2, maybe 3 have a blue background. Of all the ones with the OP stamp only Clarke has been known to have 2 cards stamped. Every other know OP backed card is supposedly a one-of-a-kind.

These are the ones that I know of:

BLUE
BACKGROUND
* Leon owns a Clarke SGC graded
*Rob A. owns a Dooin (Don't know if it is graded)
*Leon thinks he has read or heard of a 3rd one????
**Leon and Rob, I put your names by your cards because you have them displayed on your websites.

RED
BACKGROUND
* SGC has a Chance listed on their Registry.
I have * a Cobb SGC graded
* a Wagner SGC graded
* a Brown SGC graded
* a Mcgraw SGC graded
* a Young SGC graded
* a Collins SGC graded
*Leon owns a Bresnahan
* I saw a Meyers in a Devid Festberg auction about 8 years ago.
*Bob M. (tbob) had a RED Clarke that was on its way to
him after being grade by GAI but was LOST in shipping
by big brown.

This would put the total at 11 known to exist, 12 if we count the possible 3rd blue one, and 13 if Bob's Red Clarke ever shows up. It is interesting that of all the ones to exist only 1 ISN"T a Hall of Famer!

If others exist, please let the board know. This would be very valuable information if a new discovery pops up in the future. I'm hoping that the grading companies could use this information, and the recent overprint forgeries, to help them be very cautious in their future grading of these Old Put Overprints.

Thanks,
Tim

[Leon]

Nice work so far. The other blue background Old Put I am aware of is one that I did see a scan of. There is no refuting I saw it. As a matter of fact I know it belong(ed) to an employee of a card dealer, I think Kit Young. He had sent a scan several years ago when we were talking about them on the board at that time. I agree with Adam W too, if these aren't your cup of tea, that is fine. The fewer collectors of them the less they will cost us ........ As I have said before, and you have made a point of too, I do think provenance on overprints is a good thing. Last time we had this discussion about E94's I called Rob L and asked him about them, since he's been in the hobby around 30-35 yrs. He told me he has found E94 overprints in virgin collections and is sure they are legit. My Oh You Fan E94 came, second hand thru Tom B., from a guy that barely knew what he had. At least 7-8 of my exact E94 overprints are shown in Lipset's Encyclopedia as I got them from one of his auctions many years ago. That book is 25 yrs old so having pics of them in there is as good as it gets for provenance. I bought those 8 (of the 10 I own) in his auction, for $8800, which was a record high price at the time. All of them were sent in 1 toploader, stacked on top of each other. I would venture to guess there are many more Old Puts and E94 overprints that are not even known about, still in old original collections.

[tbob]

Leon, there probably are more E94 overprints in collections (I found one myself on a card recently which I had forgotten about) but I doubt there are too many more Old Puts. (At least for now, I am still wondering about possible forgeries in the future because of the seeming ease of creating a rubber stamp to make them).
I agree with leon, provenance is important...

[tbob]

As I recall my Old Put Clarke was pictured in the SCD catalogue for a couple of years, don't know if it is still pictured in the current catalogue or not. You have to have the tobacco card designation to find it since Old Puts have their own tobacco card designation now (can't for the life of me remember what it is)

[canjond]

Wasn't there an Old Put on eBay a few years back being sold by a person who didn't know what they had? I can remember the card being in poor shape and the Old Put overprint was barely visable, but was there. I think the card was won by a board member.

[HRBAKER]

Tbob,
It's still in there, page 268 in the 2009 Standard catalog. It does not bear a tobacco designation though, simply listed in the O's right after Old Judge.

[caramelcard]

I agree with Bob. I think there are more E94 overprints out there than Old Put cards.



Jon: That's the blue Dooin that I won on ebay a couple years ago. It looks like it's been water damaged, but even though faded I can tell it's a legitimate stamp.

Rob

[Leon]

The person I was alluding to earlier still reads the board and sent these to add to our list. They go fairly far back. He had told me where he got them and it's one of my favorite dealers to buy esoteric stuff from, Ron Vitro.....what a great guy....

[caramelcard]

Very interesting!! Thanks Leon for digging that info up.

That makes two Dooin blue Old Puts and two Brown with red background unless it's the same example as Tim has.

[Tim Kindler]

Thanks Leon, 2 more Blues and 1 more Red.
The Red Brown is not mine. Mine is a SGC 30 and the Brown pictured is a lower grade with paper loss in the bottom right hand corner and a curved crease on the left.
So this means that there are 5 blues including 2 Dooins and 11 Reds including 2 Browns and Bob's missing Clarke.

Leon,
If I understood it correctly, I believe you said that the person who owns these 3 Old Puts STILL has them.
Thanks for the great scans.

Keep the scans and information coming if anyone can add to the checklist.

##Oh, I have always wondered why the Standard Catalog includes all 30
E98s when all of them are not known???

[tbob]

Wow, that Kling Old Put is something! Blue background to boot.

[Leon]

My understanding is that he does still own them. He is not from the dealer I was thinking of, but is from another one. He wishes to remain private at this time. I just appreciate the help as I know ya'll do!!

[Tim Kindler]

Wow, we are learning more about these mysterious Old Puts. For years, I think it was a widely shared belief that all Old Puts were on Red background E98s. Then the Clarke came along, the Dooin, another confirmed sighting by Leon (Not sure who the player is), and now a Kling and another Dooin! 5total BLUES. As of now it can be said that all Old Puts come with either a Red or Blue background!

I second Bob's comment on the Kling. It sure is a beauty!

I fully understand the gentleman who owns these 3 new Old Puts wishing to remain anonymous. But thank you, and thank you Leon, so much for adding to our survey with great scans. It is nice to hear there are more and even nicer to see actual pictures of them.

Rob, Could you post a picture of your Dooin sometime when you get the chance? I have never seen the front before and would love to see this cool card! Thanks, Tim

This gets our current survey up to:
5 Blues
1. Clarke
2. Dooin
3. Dooin
4.Kling
5. ????

11 Reds
1. Chance
2. Cobb
3. Wagner
4. Brown
5. Brown
6. McGraw
7. Young
8. Collins
9. Bresnahan
10. Myers
11. Clarke (missing)

If anyone else has any more imformation, please add to our study. So far we have documented 16 total cards.

Now, If only I had a Blue Old Put!

Thanks,
Tim Kindler

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Tim Kindler

11. Clarke (missing)

Thanks,
Tim Kindler

Tim- I still waiting for this one to pop up someday either on ebay or with an auction house. I still have the scan and it will be easy to identify.

[gabrinus]

I have a red Hippo Vaughn Old Put bought on ebay around 2000.

[uffda51]

I won this from Lew Lipset in a 2002 auction.

[Tim Kindler]

Bruce,
Your Mack is beautiful! The color is outstanding, and your scan is terrific! Thanks for adding to our survey. The Vaugn and Mack add two more to the number of red backgrounds. It is nice to confirm two more to the population count.

Awesome card!
Tim Kindler

[Hal Kaplan]

Can't remember where I found this scan, card is not mine:

[gabrinus]

Here is the Vaughn scan. Hope I did it right.

[Tim Kindler]

It is great to see images of the Old Puts that we have confirmed thus far. There are some really beautiful cards with some vibrant colors to them. I don't have a web site to show mine so I thought I should post them here. Here are my 6.
If there are any more out there, keep them coming. We would like to continue our Old Put confirmations.

Hope to see everyone at the National! Best wishes for a Happy 4th of July from Fort Rain...Oops, I mean Fort Wayne, Indiana.
Tim Kindler

[Tim Kindler]

I had to post #6 on a seperate post because of the 5 image limit. I hope to send this off to SGC to cross over soon.
Tim

[tbob]

I bumped this thread which I found interesting. Too much Forman, Legendary, fake Cobb diaries etc. I am as guilty as anyone. I just thought it would be nice to get back to talking about cards.

[Leon]

Nice post....I am with you....

[caramelcard]

Wonder if there's a matty out there.....

[Tim Kindler]

Rob,
The Matty would be an awesome one to see. I've always wondered why the Standard Catalog listed all of the players under the Old Put when to most people's knowledge, not all of the players have been seen with a card?????
I'm not saying that our little survey here is the end all, be all checklist of Old Puts, but it certainly is a great resourse to document the authentic Old Puts that ARE out there. Seeing scans of each of the Old Puts that exist sure helps add to the provenance of each one that we document in this thread.
Tim

[pcoz]

Here's an Old Put to add to the list. Tim, amazing collection!

[Tim Kindler]

Pete,
Loved to see the new Dooin surface. Sorry I bid you up on it, but glad it went someone who appreciates the rareness of the issue. I'm glad to see that it was confirmed authentic. I'll admit I couldn't go any higher not knowing for sure if it was authentic or not. Great to see so many beautiful E98s surfacing lately. We haven't updated this list in a long time, so if anyone else has one to add, everyone would love to see them.

I've attached an image of Pete's Dooin's Blue "brother". From our survey a few years ago, this blue Dooin belonged to Rob A. at the time. After I purchased it from him, (Thanks Rob!) it was Authenticated by SGC and gave me my seventh Old Put.

Pete has a real nice E98 set going on his SGC Registry! (Hope you don't mind the endorsement)
All four of my sets are also on the SGC Registry under each background color. I'm slowly getting toward the Master Set (90 out of 120) with a few cards that I have, but need to get graded by SGC not on the site yet.

Anyway best wishes to everyone and it's neat to see an old thread come up!