The Cincinnati Wagner "Graded"

[Rich Klein]

Presented without comment


Cinci Duo Finally Gets Wagner Card Slabbed

It's been beaten up. Dragged through the mud. Cursed. Reviled. Verbally spanked.

And that's just speaking metaphorically.



The Honus Wagner baseball card Ray Edwards and John Cobb own is still in the same shape it was in when they say it was uncovered at an estate sale years ago, but the community of mainstream authenticators and collectors are convinced it's just another in a long line of fakes.



Nothing has deterred the duo from trying to get someone to say it dates from the same early 20th time period as the real Wagners that are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.



Finally, they found a company to do just that.



ACA Grading, based in St-Jerome, Quebec, met with the men recently and after examining the card, decided it was an "unreleased version" of the hobby's most famous trading card, issued in 1909 and then recalled after objections by Wagner.



A story in the New York Daily News says ACA agreed to let the two owners be present during the evaluation. Cobb and Edwards claim they didn't want it to be encapsulated alone and, thus, steered clear of the hobby's mainstream authenticators.


Here is the story from the New York Daily News


T206 Honus Wagner card finally gets a stamp of approval, but controversy lingers


The two Cincinnati men who have spent many frustrating years trying to prove their T206 Honus Wagner is legitimate have finally gotten their baseball card authenticated.

But the collectors and dealers who have ripped Ray Edwards and John Cobb as hucksters peddling a counterfeit card will probably not apologize anytime soon.

Edwards and Cobb submitted their card to ACA Grading, a little-known authentication service based in Quebec, which labeled the card "authentic."



"It is what we call an unreleased version of the card," said ACA Grading owner Martin Brouillard. "It is a controversial card, and people are scared of it."



Edwards and Cobb have refused to submit their card to any of the three biggest grading services -- Professional Sports Authentication, Beckett and SportsCard Guaranty -- because those companies would not allow them to be present when their cards are evaluated.



The companies say that policy is necessary because they don't want collectors trying to influence the grades their cards receive. Cobb and Edwards say the policy sounds reasonable for cards worth a few dollars, but the companies should make exceptions for a card potentially worth millions of dollars.



Brouillard said he graded the card "authentic," rather than giving it a numeral grade, because he permitted Edwards to be present when he examined the card, and because fibers have been taken from the collectible.



Brouillard based his grade in part on research done by paper expert Walter Rantanen, who examined the card in 2003 at the request of Edwards and Cobb and concluded the paper stock was consistent "with being from 1910." Brouillard also relied in part on printing expert Arnie Schwed, who also examined the card for Edwards and Cobb and said it was definitely not a counterfeit.



Collectors say the card appears to be a fake because it looks dull and discolored. There is no black border around the picture of Wagner, and Wagner's name at the bottom looks different than it does on other T206 cards. Memorabilia industry executives, most notably PSA's Joe Orlando and Bill Mastro, whose now-defunct Mastro Auctions is at the center of an FBI fraud investigation, have called the card a fake.



Brouillard says the card may have been a print test for production, or a first printing that was scrapped.



Brouillard's opinion isn't likely to satisfy the critics of Edwards and Cobb. Without a stamp of approval from one of the mainstream grading services, Edwards and Cobb probably won't sell their card.



But it's not like the mainstream grading services and authenticators are unimpeachable. The T206 Wagner once owned by NHL superstar Wayne Gretzky, purchased in 2007 for $2.7 million by Arizona Diamondbacks managing general partner Ken Kendrick, was given an "8" by PSA even though one of the graders says he knew the card was trimmed when he examined it in 1991. The card grader, Bill Hughes, acknowledged that the Wagner was trimmed during an interview for "The Card," a 2007 book written by two Daily News reporters.

[glynparson]

Big difference between a trimmed authentic card and that counterfeit piece of crap that Cobb/Edwards have.

[buymycards]

Seems like it would be real simple to get PSA and SGC to look at it. Wonder why that hasn't happened?

[Matthew H]

Glad we finally know its real.

[calvindog]

It's racists like you people that keep these two good men down.

[Cardboard Junkie]

........here we go!

[ullmandds]

Ridiculous...that card is a POS! The reason Psa/sgc wont see is is because those idiots won't let it be graded unless they were present!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by calvindog

It's racists like you people that keep these two good men down.

Indeed. Not only have the racists come out of the woodwork on this one, but a deluge of "anti-slabbites" and "honus-phobes" are out in full force as well.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Seems like it would be real simple to get PSA and SGC to look at it. Wonder why that hasn't happened?

That's simple. Remember, they were 'afraid' that if the card were out of their sight for even a second during grading/slabbing, that someone at PSA or SGC would quickly switch it with a fake.

Didn't we have a board member years ago say that they were the ones who actually sold the reprint card to these clowns at a show, after they asked questions that basically revealed their intentions?

This would be entertaining if not for the fact that at some point someone decent will get screwed over this.

[vintagecpa]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Didn't we have a board member years ago say that they were the ones who actually sold the reprint card to these clowns at a show, after they asked questions that basically revealed their intentions?

I would love to read that thread if it still exists. If anyone is able to find it, please post the link. Thanks.

[barrysloate]

If ACA Grading should happen to read this board, I have a question for them:

I think they made a very bold assertion by calling the Edwards-Cobb specimen an unreleased version of the T206 Honus Wagner. This being the case, and since all grading companies need to stand behind such statements, I would like to know what exhaustive research the company made to reach this conclusion? What libraries did you folks visit, what primary and secondary sources did you use, what internet sites did you find, and did you study in detail the records of the ATC? I imagine to reach such a conclusion, no amount of time was spared in doing your research.

I ask you this because I am thinking of making the owners a very significant offer for their card. But in order to do so with the appropriate level of confidence, I really do need to see documentation. I realize we may be talking about a couple of hundred pages that will need to be photocopied, so please know that I will reimburse you for all your costs.

So if you are reading this, I thank you in advance for all your time and trouble. I realize you must all be exhausted from the weeks of research you put in to come with your conclusion, but I think we can all agree it was well worth it.

Look forward to receiving a packet of documents from your company. Thanks again.

[atx840]

Slabbed

[atx840]

[Blunder19]

if it goes on ebay I will buy it..... for $1.99

[z28jd]

For those just reading this again, this reprint isn't even one of one and it isn't a real back on a fake front. I have the same exact card. Got it from a dealer at a Cherry Hill,NJ show in 1991ish.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

ACA Grading, based in St-Jerome, Quebec, met with the men recently and after examining the card, decided it was an "unreleased version" of the hobby's most famous trading card, issued in 1909 and then recalled after objections by Wagner.

[z28jd]

This show was from early 2013, covered here https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=161975

As you can see a few pages back in this post, I have the same reprint card they have and freely shared scans of it at the time. I would not be working right now if that card was real, I would have sold it 20 years ago, and I wouldn't just assume it was fake unless I didn't have 650+ real T206 cards to compare it to. They refused to take expert opinions on the card, as if auction houses wouldn't be beating down their door to sell that card

[scmavl]

Originally Posted by z28jd

This show was from early 2013, covered here https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=161975

Ah, I searched "Edwards Wagner", but didn't see that come up in my search. Maybe the dash messed me up. Just one of those legendary hobby stories...

[philliesfan]

I must have been in a coma as I have never seen this story before.

When I saw the scan of the card on the first page, I started laughing.

Bob

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

I must have been in a coma as I have never seen this story before.

When I saw the scan of the card on the first page, I started laughing.

Bob

+1 on everything he said

I will just add...5 page thread about probably the fakiest fake card of all time!

[Fred]

Wow, blast from the past.

[joshleon]

I watched that entire video and loved it....not for one second did I think it was real...neither did the investigators.

"T206 Earl Gray Portrait with piedmont back"

[Misunderestimated]

At the beginning of the video it recites as fact the number of T206s produced and the number of T206 Wagners produced. Are these facts known?

(This video was interesting and sad although I kinda knew how it would end).

[Mark17]

I loved how the card owner, quite uncomfortably, gave his lame excuse why a multi-million dollar card would be graded by someone other than the Big 3.

[53toppscollector]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I loved how the card owner, quite uncomfortably, gave his lame excuse why a multi-million dollar card would be graded by someone other than the Big 3.

hes been at it for so long. I wonder how he is able to afford all of these shenanigans, unless he is being paid to be humiliated on these shows.