Anyone think that these depict the same ballplayer?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Just got the cabinet. In the embossed part it has "W. S. Coffman, Paris, Mo." I think that is the photographer.

The Encyclopedia of Minor League Baseball lists minor league teams for Arkansas, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Texas. But it has no listing for a Paris, Missouri.

So... do you reckon the cabinet is of a player of a town team from Paris, MO?? Or do these two players look alike?

Frank.

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Posted By: Adam

I think they are the same person.

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Posted By: Mark L

I say no. The proportions of the face differ. The length of the 2nd guy's nose is equal to he distance between the nose and the chin while the 1st guy's nose is much smaller than the distance from his nose to his chin. Maybe it's hard to tell because of the different angles but I think the ears are different, too.

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Posted By: Shawn Chambers

Don't know for sure if it's the same player, but that is a really cool cabinet, Frank. I love "tidal wave" hairdo's.

Shawn

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Posted By: Fred C

Wow, is that Cap Anson? Hahahaha, - Just kidding.

Well, T210 was issued around 1910. Does anyone want to guess at a year for the cabinet?

Interestingly enough, the subjects do look a little similar and both are depicted on the Paris team.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Even if it's not, it sure is close.

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Posted By: Rob D.

I think the ears say no.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

no...eyes, ears and facial structure different

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

I don't know. Did plastic surgery exist in those days?

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Posted By: Chris Mc

I hate to buck the trend but I believe they are thr same. The top photo is a younger version of the bottom photo. If the angles were the same I think the ears would match up.

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Posted By: Zinn

"I think the ears say no."

Ears are considered one of the most distinctive identification features. Here we have the classic attached vs. detached comparison.

Not the same person.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

since i am up way too early for some odd reason, and nursing a vodka hang-over...i decided to put both of these images side by side and analyzed eyes, noses, ears, foreheads, lips, etc...

the clincher is that the ear lobs (sp?) are two different sizes and shapes.

cool cards either way...

edited to say: Zinn- we posted at the same time

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Posted By: Bill Stone

Great pick up. William Kuhlman played for the Paris Bourbonites of the Blue Grass League in 1910,1911 and 1912. Interesting enough, according to the SABR Minor League database, in 1908 he played for the Havana Perfectos in the Illinois-Missouri League. Since it appears he was at least in the vicinty of Paris, Missouri in 1908 I would keep researching him because it might possibly be the same person. This is the kind of question that makes this hobby so much fun. Thanks for sharing it.

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Posted By: Ed Hans

I vote no. The ears are quite different.

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Posted By: Ed Ivey

Could it be an optical illusion that the "title wave" hair offsets the left ear deviation?

Edit: duh. Tidal wave.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Thank you guys... thanks for all of the opinions and thoughts.

I think the cabinet card is older, the jersey in that one seems to be laced; whilst (sorry, it slipped out) the jersey in the Old Mill is buttoned.

I wondered, as mentioned above, that maybe the cabinet was a younger version of the Old Mill player. And Bill mentions that William Kuhlman was over in Missouri before he made it to Kentucky. Maybe he was from Missouri and had that made while he was back home.

Their heads aren't at the same aspect, and that makes comparison a bit troublesome...

I go back and forth on it, I want it to be the same guy, but they don't look exactly alike. But then 1st and 2nd year pictures of Babe Ruth, Mark Mc and Barry B don't match up with their last year pictures.

Thanks, guys. And more observations are welcome!!

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

Either way, I think I can safely say that Frank has discovered the the man who provided the inspiration for those grotesque Bob's Big Boy statues!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

frank-

FWIW- i like your use of the word "aspect"...it is refined, sophisticated and above all, poignant.

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: MVSNYC

to take this analysis to the next level...

let's compare the distance from the bottom of their noses to the top of their lips (different)...

let's also look at the location of the parts in their hair (different)...

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I used to own that cabinet photo and I'm certain it is from the 1890s. Maybe it's Kuhlman's pop?

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Posted By: leon

I think, from the scan cincicards just put up, they do look very similar. Not sure if they are the same but look at their eyelids. They are formed the same way.....I think Michael mentioned the "from their nose to their lip distance"....to me they are close...and the part in the hair is similar too.....And further more I think there is a distinct possibility that is where Kips Big Boy got his hair style from. Are there still any Kips even around? I don't think so....

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Posted By: Ed McCollum

Paris is about 14 miles from my home town. Small now, always has been. Around 900 people. Strictly a farming community. Could try and send this listing to my folks, and see if my mom could do some research at the Ralls
County court house but ... (and this is somewhat embarrassing) there is no high speed internet anywhere around there. The only place in my home town with internet is the city library, and it is dial up. So most only go to the library to check the city supplied e-mail once or twice a month. I'll call her first to let her know I am trying to send her something.

Ed

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Posted By: MVSNYC

look at their "tragus"

different

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Posted By: Jim VB

Kip's was the local (Texas and Oklahoma) franchise of Bob's Big Boy Restaurants. Today, Leon or I would have to drive pretty far to find any Big Boy franchise. Ronald has killed most of them.

http://www.bigboy.com/locations.asp

Sorry Leon. Looks like you have to stick with Scotty P's for a burger.

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Posted By: Bill Stone

I think Paris, Missouri is about 150 miles from Havana, Illinois so it is possible that this could have been a starting point for him or that his father might have played there. Fred Beck ( T205) was born in Havana, Illinois in 1886 so it does have a rich baseball tradition.

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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm

"look at their Tragus"

Paging Dr. Sarno!
STOP IT!

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Posted By: MVSNYC

haha...Jodi- i don't know the first thing about anatomy (well, a few parts )

but thanks to google...i now know the parts of an ear...and you do too!

MS

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I appreciate the helpful and informative observations, guys... thank you.

I subscribe to A-Word-A-Day, an email that give the definition, etymology, and usage of a new word each day, 5 days a week. No word today, 'cause it is Saturday... but thanks to you guys I have 'tragus'... I confess I can't recall encountering that word before.

Bill McC, thanks in advance for anything you can dig up for me.

And Bill S, you have me ready to rejoin SABR so I can access the database to which you referred. I have several players I'd like to research.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

All I know is that the guy's hair in picture #1 reminds me of Cameron Diaz' hair in There's Something About Mary!


Steve

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Posted By: Addie_Joss

I don't think its the same player. What is the approximate dates of that cabinet and the tobacco card you posted? The uniforms look wholely different. Cabinet's uniform features no buttons and is a totally different style. If they are say 10-15 years apart from each other he would have aged a lot more. That guy in the card still looks pretty young.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

The red border Old Mill card is from 1910, a series 6 T210.

I bought the cabinet from Dan B above (thank you Dan, super packaging, quick shipping) and he says 1890's, which sounds about right to me.

If it is the same guy, I figure he's wearing different Paris jerseys, home and away (when did they start doing that?)... Or maybe that is him in the mid to late 1890s in the Cabinet and then near the end of his career in the 1910 Old Mill card.

It seems slightly more likely to me that the ball players depicted aren't the same person. But I'm not certain of that. I'm aware of my bias hoping they're one in the same.

I spent 2 evenings with my mother, pouring over old family photographs, getting her to identify my family inlaws and outlaws... she didn't recognize some of the older photos. I've written on the backs of some of the newer stuff. My point, all us us, "WE" (plural) need to do that, even if we know who they are. Our kids may well not know. At their young age they don't even care. But one day they may well care, and if we're gone, or can't remember, then that information is lost forever. Nothing is written on the back of that Paris cabinet, but I certainly wish there was!

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Posted By: Rob D.

I subscribe to A-Word-A-Day, an email that give the definition, etymology, and usage of a new word each day, 5 days a week.

Frank,

Any chance you could forward information on how to subscribe to this service to The Group, in hopes that they will stop butchering the written word?

Thanks in advance.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

A Word A Day...

To subscribe, unsubscribe,
update address, gift subscription: http://wordsmith.org/awad/subscriber.html

It is free, short, easy to delete... some days are better than others...

And we can be provoked into thinking a bit, whilst we read our emails.

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Posted By: Richard Cline - RC

Frank - I don't really think the two players are the same person. Previous posts regarding the ear, some very specific, show differences and I believe the nose is much narrower in the second photo than the first.

I'm trying the word of the day, always looking for new things.

RC

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Posted By: ROBERT ADAMS JR

Is it possible they are related ? Brothers possibly ?

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Posted By: ken McMillan

would that be Havana, Illinois as in the Havanah ducks? Scarry little hick town if you ask me. I grew up maybe 30 miles from there.