Heritage Auctions - Boston Garters

[Vintagedeputy]

I’ll just let the photo speak for itself….incredible.

[darwinbulldog]

Holy

[paul]

Incredible cards. The Joe Jackson is estimated to have a value of 250K. What I find amazing and shocking is that the 68 Topps Mantle (PSA 10) is estimated to have a value of 300K. If I had a PSA 10 Mantle, I'd trade it in a heartbeat for the Jackson.

[conor912]

Holy crap. That is just, well, magnificent. Hard to believe there’s another complete set out there.

[Schlesinj]

Interesting note, the cards will be auctioned off individually and as a set. Whichever produces more & is the way the cards will sell.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Schlesinj

Interesting note, the cards will be auctioned off individually and as a set. Whichever produces more & is the way the cards will sell.

Interesting way to do it and obviously it is the best way for their seller.

All the cards are amazing of course the Joe Jackson and the Cobb are the show stoppers to me.

The condition of them all is amazing and the colors truly POP

[brunswickreeves]

Link to full auction for higher resolution pictures and description:
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...50066-189013.s

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by brunswickreeves

Link to full auction for higher resolution pictures and description:
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...50066-189013.s

Thank you for posting that link. I hadn’t had time to look for it when I first saw that photo.

I’m really glad to see those cards in SGC slabs. Putting them in any other holder would’ve been a tremendous disservice.

[Mrc32]

Call me crazy - but wouldn't these draw higher prices as individual lots rather than an entire set?

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

Thank you for posting that link. I hadn’t had time to look for it when I first saw that photo.

I’m really glad to see those cards in SGC slabs. Putting them in any other holder would’ve been a tremendous disservice.

They know their audience.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Mrc32

Call me crazy - but wouldn't these draw higher prices as individual lots rather than an entire set?

Maybe! My experience is that's traditionally been the case, although only a Sith deals in absolutes.

At the same time, there are some AHs that are starting to run tandem auctions, whereby you can bid on them as a complete set, or individually. Whichever fetches the highest price wins. So you could be the highest bidder on an item, but if the complete set draws a higher price, then you still lose.

Somewhat shockingly, from time to time the complete set will win.

[hcv123]

Just discussed with Toby at the East Coast national that these used to show up from time to time, but I hadn't seen any offered publicly in some time! Some of the most incredible cards of the era imo.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Amazing set of course but oddly to me no Wagner, Mathewson, Lajoie, Collins.

[fisherboy7]

The only thing that would amaze me more is a complete set of 1912 Boston Garters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Amazing set of course but oddly to me no Wagner, Mathewson, Lajoie, Collins.

Matty, Lajoie and Collins were included in the 1912 BG set and in the 1914 (I think there is some uncrtainty as to this date) sepia BG set, so it makes sense that these three stars weren't also in the 1914 color BG set. Interestingly, WaJo and Speaker are the only two players who appear in both the 1912 BG and 1914 color BG sets. My guess as to the reason for Wags' absence in all three BG sets is because the issuer declined to pay Wags for the use of his image.

[Hankphenom]

What's your guess, fellas?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

The condition of them all is amazing and the colors truly POP

Once again, I am completely mystified by the grades on these. Beautiful front and back, particularly given their rarity, whatever justification one will come up with for the ridiculously low grades only renders the grading system employed a joke in my estimation. There has to be a better way, one that actually makes sense.

[petecld]

They are real and they are spectacular!
-- Teri Hatcher

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Once again, I am completely mystified by the grades on these. Beautiful front and back, particularly given their rarity, whatever justification one will come up with for the ridiculously low grades only renders the grading system employed a joke in my estimation. There has to be a better way, one that actually makes sense.

Then again, on cards like these, the grade is sort of beside the point.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Once again, I am completely mystified by the grades on these. Beautiful front and back, particularly given their rarity, whatever justification one will come up with for the ridiculously low grades only renders the grading system employed a joke in my estimation. There has to be a better way, one that actually makes sense.

There's staining and paper loss all over the place on the backs. The fronts look amazing but the grades look perfectly appropriate to me given the backs.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Once again, I am completely mystified by the grades on these. Beautiful front and back, particularly given their rarity, whatever justification one will come up with for the ridiculously low grades only renders the grading system employed a joke in my estimation. There has to be a better way, one that actually makes sense.

They pretty much all have some paper loss and/or back damage. I suspect that's why they are graded so low.

Naturally, this gets us back to the subject of many other posts around here around how to adjust for back damage, and people who love buying cards with back damage because they can get them on the cheap.

But I'm guessing these won't go for cheap. If we're taking shots in the dark, I'm guessing $500k+. But then again, it could go for a looooooot more.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then again, on cards like these, the grade is sort of beside the point.

Of course. Then again, what does that say about the system?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Of course. Then again, what does that say about the system?

Assuming heritage submitted these, I have to believe they got the best possible grades that could be assigned to the cards. Their pics typically under state defects.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by petecld

They are real and they are spectacular!
-- Teri Hatcher

Weren't they though!

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then again, on cards like these, the grade is sort of beside the point.

Winner, winner chicken dinner. You nailed it.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Tabe

There's staining and paper loss all over the place on the backs. The fronts look amazing but the grades look perfectly appropriate to me given the backs.

OK, so we have maybe 5% loss/residue and some staining on the worst backs, and eye-popping fronts--you know, the important side by a factor of what, 10 or 100 in relation to the backs? If that justifies 1.5s all around for these extreme rarities that are basically never seen in ANY condition, I rest my case. I will go to my grave believing that is a flawed grading system, one that everyone accepts now, but that really doesn't make much sense in the real world. They would all be at least 3s or 4s if I were king of the forest. That would leave a ton of room for any surfacing in much better shape, while not lumping them in with ones driven over by tanks in the mud on the downside. Not trying to pick any fights here, and I totally get where we are. Of course, I should just let it go, but someone many years ago pulled this absurd system out of their butts and decreed it to be so, and it will never seem logical to me.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

OK, so we have maybe 5% loss/residue and some staining on the worst backs, and eye-popping fronts--you know, the important side by a factor of what, 10 or 100 in relation to the backs? If that justifies 1.5s all around for these extreme rarities that are basically never seen in ANY condition, I rest my case. I will go to my grave believing that is a flawed grading system, one that everyone accepts now, but that really doesn't make much sense in the real world. They would all be at least 3s or 4s if I were king of the forest. That would leave a ton of room for any surfacing in much better shape, while not lumping them in with ones driven over by tanks in the mud on the downside. Not trying to pick any fights here, and I totally get where we are. Of course, I should just let it go, but someone many years ago pulled this absurd system out of their butts and decreed it to be so, and it will never seem logical to me.

On some level, I agree with you. The fronts on these cards pretty much all look spectacular and they SEEM like they should get 3s and 4s.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

OK, so we have maybe 5% loss/residue and some staining on the worst backs, and eye-popping fronts--you know, the important side by a factor of what, 10 or 100 in relation to the backs? If that justifies 1.5s all around for these extreme rarities that are basically never seen in ANY condition, I rest my case. I will go to my grave believing that is a flawed grading system, one that everyone accepts now, but that really doesn't make much sense in the real world. They would all be at least 3s or 4s if I were king of the forest. That would leave a ton of room for any surfacing in much better shape, while not lumping them in with ones driven over by tanks in the mud on the downside. Not trying to pick any fights here, and I totally get where we are. Of course, I should just let it go, but someone many years ago pulled this absurd system out of their butts and decreed it to be so, and it will never seem logical to me.

Respectfully, I've got to disagree with you Hank. The whole idea of grading (in my mind) is that a grade is assigned to a whole card that survived in a certain type of condition.

A '57 Bel Air with an immaculate body and a destroyed interior is not in showroom condition, just because she looks pretty on the outside. Following your logic, a skinned card should grade high because the front looks great while the rear side is completely missing.

The inside of a fence is just as important to the security of a property as the outside. Its all a complete package in my mind. If the backs on these cards have paper loss, then they are graded properly as-is. What if the front had paper loss and the backs were immaculate?

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by raulus

They pretty much all have some paper loss and/or back damage. I suspect that's why they are graded so low.

Naturally, this gets us back to the subject of many other posts around here around how to adjust for back damage, and people who love buying cards with back damage because they can get them on the cheap.

But I'm guessing these won't go for cheap. If we're taking shots in the dark, I'm guessing $500k+. But then again, it could go for a looooooot more.

I'm betting the over.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Vintagedeputy

Respectfully, I've got to disagree with you Hank. The whole idea of grading (in my mind) is that a grade is assigned to a whole card that survived in a certain type of condition. Following your logic, a skinned card should grade high because the front looks great while the rear side is completely missing. What if the front had paper loss and the backs were immaculate?

To my thinking, your examples reinforce my point, Jim. If the Heritage cards are 1.5s, where's the room below them for skinned backs or extreme paper loss to the fronts? No matter how horrible condition a card is in, you have only a half grade to move down from those in the auction, which everybody agrees are super-duper wowza. I just don't see the logic in that. But you guys have beaten me down, I'm going to accept what is and leave it at that.

[Exhibitman]

Screw the flips; I want the WaJo!

[GasHouseGang]

I had never seen the backs of these cards before. Here's one of the cards in the auction and you can see the back damage that resulted in the low technical grade.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I had never seen the backs of these cards before. Here's one of the cards in the auction and you can see the back damage that resulted in the low technical grade.

Not much damage at all, presents very well.

[GasHouseGang]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Not much damage at all, presents very well.

I agree. They are beautiful cards.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

To my thinking, your examples reinforce my point, Jim. If the Heritage cards are 1.5s, where's the room below them for skinned backs or extreme paper loss to the fronts? No matter how horrible condition a card is in, you have only a half grade to move down from those in the auction, which everybody agrees are super-duper wowza. I just don't see the logic in that. But you guys have beaten me down, I'm going to accept what is and leave it at that.

I would imagine that with increased paper loss, we’d be looking at 1’s or A’s.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Mrc32

Call me crazy - but wouldn't these draw higher prices as individual lots rather than an entire set?

150%. I would not sell these cards as both a set and individual cards. It could potentially limit the degree of bidding intensity for the major cards like Jackson, Cobb, Johnson & Speaker. As a collector (and bidder), it is extremely frustrating bidding strong on a particular item, knowing full well I might be wasting my time since the card may ultimately sell as a piece of the entire set. That said, I do believe the individual lot aggregate will best the full set price - happens 90%+ of the time when an auction house pits individual lots vs. the complete set.

[Vintageclout]

In the grand scheme, grades do not matter versus the extreme rarity of these Garters. The beautiful aesthetics and right to own a copy for such iconic cards supersedes any technical assessment. As the saying goes - try and find another one!

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Of course. Then again, what does that say about the system?

It's sgc so nothing....they "know" their (limited) audience

[darwinbulldog]

Surely it is for exactly those cards that look to be in great condition in a photo but aren't in reality that third-party grading is most useful, no?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Surely it is for exactly those cards that look to be in great condition in a photo but aren't in reality that third-party grading is most useful, no?

I have no problem with TPGs, Glenn, I just think the system is too loose at the bottom and too tight at the top. But that's just me, so I'm bowing out here.

[Joshwesley]

You’ve got to be kidding me 😮 😍😍😍😍

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I have no problem with TPGs, Glenn, I just think the system is too loose at the bottom and too tight at the top. But that's just me, so I'm bowing out here.

It seems most everyone has strong feelings about the graders, and I don’t think anyone faults you for feeling like there’s some real room for improvement.

At the same time, pleasing even most of us is probably an impossible task.

But maybe here’s one way to go:

1) Sub grades for each of the four corners.
2) The surface is now divided into four quadrants, with subgrades for each, plus let’s double down with those grades for each zone on each side, front and back.
3) Edges are now broken down into 8 zones, 2 per side, with subgrades for each zone.
4) Centering for both front and back is disclosed, down to 0.01% precision. And for top/bottom and left/right. Tilting is also measured, again to 0.01% precision.
5) Print defects, snow, fisheyes, etc. are all identified, counted and disclosed, with a listing for each instance identified.
6) Any and all alterations, trims, recoloration, etc. is identified and disclosed with perfect fidelity on an enumerated list, including detail regarding the location of said adjustments.

Bonus: the grading scale will now institute gradations down to 0.01 points for each element. And each of the subgrades will be weighted, with the final grade being a product of each of the weighted valued for the subgrades.

Graders will also be required to write a narrative of one page single space typed to justify each of the subgrades, including factors considered and weighed when making their evaluation. Plus a mandatory essay to extol the virtues of the card, including the degree to which it makes their hearts soar upon beholding it. If not on the flip, then at least available by scanning a QR code on the flip.

Turnaround times will be 2 days or less, including shipping times.

Fees will be $10 or less for each card. Large discounts for bulk orders and vintage cards. The older the card, the bigger the discount.

Shipping is free.

Forgot to mention: Slabs will be indestructible. So no more cracking and resubmitting. Or cracking at all. Once inside a slab with all of these details, it stays there forever.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by raulus

It seems most everyone has strong feelings about the graders, and I don’t think anyone faults you for feeling like there’s some real room for improvement.

At the same time, pleasing even most of us is probably an impossible task.

But maybe here’s one way to go:

1) Sub grades for each of the four corners.
2) The surface is now divided into four quadrants, with subgrades for each, plus let’s double down with those grades for each zone on each side, front and back.
3) Edges are now broken down into 8 zones, 2 per side, with subgrades for each zone.
4) Centering for both front and back is disclosed, down to 0.01% precision. And for top/bottom and left/right. Tilting is also measured, again to 0.01% precision.
5) Print defects, snow, fisheyes, etc. are all identified, counted and disclosed, with a listing for each instance identified.
6) Any and all alterations, trims, recoloration, etc. is identified and disclosed with perfect fidelity on an enumerated list, including detail regarding the location of said adjustments.

Bonus: the grading scale will now institute gradations down to 0.01 points for each element. And each of the subgrades will be weighted, with the final grade being a product of each of the weighted valued for the subgrades.

Graders will also be required to write a narrative of one page single space typed to justify each of the subgrades, including factors considered and weighed when making their evaluation. Plus a mandatory essay to extol the virtues of the card, including the degree to which it makes their hearts soar upon beholding it. If not on the flip, then at least available by scanning a QR code on the flip.

Turnaround times will be 2 days or less, including shipping times.

Fees will be $10 or less for each card. Large discounts for bulk orders and vintage cards. The older the card, the bigger the discount.

Shipping is free.

Forgot to mention: Slabs will be indestructible. So no more cracking and resubmitting. Or cracking at all. Once inside a slab with all of these details, it stays there forever.

Not so sure about this business model...

"Fees will be $10 or less for each card. Large discounts for bulk orders and vintage cards. The older the card, the bigger the discount."



...Those Boston Garters are fantastic. Will be fun to watch.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Leon

Not so sure about this business model...

"Fees will be $10 or less for each card. Large discounts for bulk orders and vintage cards. The older the card, the bigger the discount."



...Those Boston Garters are fantastic. Will be fun to watch.

Unfortunately for us type collectors even the lowly commons are, in the words of the great Bob Eucker, "just a bit outside..."

[Beercan collector]

Tip Top Wagner
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...Auction-120115

[brianp-beme]

I know I am holding out for my Boston Garter type card to be from the set where the players are shown in their underwear.

Brian

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

I know I am holding out for my Boston Garter type card to be from the set where the players are shown in their underwear.

Brian

à la Jim Palmer?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by raulus

It seems most everyone has strong feelings about the graders, and I don’t think anyone faults you for feeling like there’s some real room for improvement.

At the same time, pleasing even most of us is probably an impossible task.

But maybe here’s one way to go:

1) Sub grades for each of the four corners.
2) The surface is now divided into four quadrants, with subgrades for each, plus let’s double down with those grades for each zone on each side, front and back.
3) Edges are now broken down into 8 zones, 2 per side, with subgrades for each zone.
4) Centering for both front and back is disclosed, down to 0.01% precision. And for top/bottom and left/right. Tilting is also measured, again to 0.01% precision.
5) Print defects, snow, fisheyes, etc. are all identified, counted and disclosed, with a listing for each instance identified.
6) Any and all alterations, trims, recoloration, etc. is identified and disclosed with perfect fidelity on an enumerated list, including detail regarding the location of said adjustments.

Bonus: the grading scale will now institute gradations down to 0.01 points for each element. And each of the subgrades will be weighted, with the final grade being a product of each of the weighted valued for the subgrades.

Graders will also be required to write a narrative of one page single space typed to justify each of the subgrades, including factors considered and weighed when making their evaluation. Plus a mandatory essay to extol the virtues of the card, including the degree to which it makes their hearts soar upon beholding it. If not on the flip, then at least available by scanning a QR code on the flip.

Turnaround times will be 2 days or less, including shipping times.

Fees will be $10 or less for each card. Large discounts for bulk orders and vintage cards. The older the card, the bigger the discount.

Shipping is free.

Forgot to mention: Slabs will be indestructible. So no more cracking and resubmitting. Or cracking at all. Once inside a slab with all of these details, it stays there forever.

LOL, well done. You should create an auction house business model next!

[Aaron Seefeldt]

Looks like the individuals finished ahead of the group $650,653.20 to $630,000. Congrats to all who were able to add one (or more) to their collection. It’s been 25 years since I owned one of these (I traded away a Walter for a ‘14 CJ Jackson, thanks John Spencer!). I am thrilled to add this one to my collection!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Aaron Seefeldt

Looks like the individuals finished ahead of the group $650,653.20 to $630,000. Congrats to all who were able to add one (or more) to their collection. It’s been 25 years since I owned one of these (I traded away a Walter for a ‘14 CJ Jackson, thanks John Spencer!). I am thrilled to add this one to my collection!

Great card. Congratulations Aaron!
.