NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:38 PM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,651
Default T206 Wagner, Memory Lane style

Maybe I'm having a brain fart...or two - I'm sure this has been brought up, but I can't find the thread. Is there ANYONE here who thinks this should be in a '2' holder?

__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-15-2012, 12:59 PM
travrosty travrosty is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,223
Default

yeah they talked about it before. looks creased to beat heck to me, and dirty on the bottom, how can be a 2?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-15-2012, 01:11 PM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by travrosty View Post
yeah they talked about it before. looks creased to beat heck to me, and dirty on the bottom, how can be a 2?
I am really a failure when it comes to using the 'search' function here

I just received my Memory Lane catalog, so this just caught my attention. Lots of good stuff, just not getting these recent Wagner grades.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-15-2012, 01:25 PM
atx840's Avatar
atx840 atx840 is offline
Chris Browne
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,735
Default

You posted about it last Wed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runscott View Post
Yes, but PSA and SGC always try to do their best to grade honestly and accurately, as with the Piedmont 150 Plank. Surely they are aware of the "Wagner" mystique and would be careful not to be influenced by it when grading.
Agreed overgraded, but I'd take it.
__________________
T206 gallery
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-15-2012, 01:37 PM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atx840 View Post
You posted about it last Wed



Agreed overgraded, but I'd take it.
There are just too many T206 Wagners available these days - I get them confused. I remembered that post, but remembered it as being about a different card - bad memory, inability to use search function. Think I'll go for a run and clear my brain out.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-15-2012, 01:42 PM
HRBAKER's Avatar
HRBAKER HRBAKER is offline
Jeff
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 5,255
Default

IMO, if the "8" is an "8," then that's a "2."
In other words, I don't put much stock in the Wagner grading.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page

HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos

"Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years."

Last edited by HRBAKER; 04-15-2012 at 01:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:30 PM
drc drc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,621
Default

If you ignore the grade issue, it's a nice looking card though. 'Honest wear' as they would have used to call it.

I agree (in my opinion) that the recently grading of some Wagners is sometimes getting close to offensive. There's no legitimate reason one card in a an issue should be graded using a different scale than another card-- 1988 Fleer or 1909-11 T206s.

But, as I said, I don't care about the number 2, which was literally (and some might say figuratively) applied to the label and not the card. I have nothing against the card, it's good looking and I'd enjoy owning it.

My opinion is even the buyers may soon be ignoring the grades on the labels if the graders continue in this vein. Inflationary, obvious favoritism-based grading eventually means no one trusts or takes seriously the grades.

I mean, seriously, will it some day mean that when a player is elected to the Hall of Fame or wins the Triple Crown the grading scale for his cards will change? Though I'm sure the grading companies would love another reason for collectors to mail in their cards to be regraded.

Last edited by drc; 04-15-2012 at 03:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-15-2012, 02:40 PM
Pup6913
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Another reason PSA is not good for the vintage industry. They just don't care.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-15-2012, 03:01 PM
t206blogcom t206blogcom is offline
Jason Stricker
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBAKER View Post
IMO, if the "8" is an "8," then that's a "2."
In other words, I don't put much stock in the Wagner grading.
+1
__________________
T206 518/518
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-15-2012, 09:40 PM
CW's Avatar
CW CW is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,478
Default

While it does look like the grader was being generous giving that Wagner a "2" grade, I could see how someone would subjectively give that card such a grade. The Wagner in REA, however, should not only have an MK qualifier for having ink on both the front and rear of the card (small splotch of ink on the front border, date stamp on the reverse), but it should possibly have an MC qualifier as well for having half of Honus' name cut off at the bottom. I've seen T206's with better centering get the MC qualifier.

And, yes, I realize both cards have been discussed in several threads now.

Perhaps when it comes to T206 Wagners and people who can afford to buy one, they will buy the card, despite the numerical grade of 1, 2, 2MK, etc. I just wish the "professional graders" were consistent.

Last edited by CW; 04-15-2012 at 09:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:23 PM
cmcclelland cmcclelland is offline
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 81
Default

This is just my two cents worth, but I think it is very funny how critical the hobby has become about distinguishing between what the numerical grade is for a low end card.

My opinion is that a card that is graded a "1" or "Poor" grade should be an extremely "poor" looking card that almost does not look like a card any more. To me, this means things like pieces of the card that are missing, holes in the card, very bad marks or writing on the card, extreme paper loss, etc. To me, this was always the standard back in the day.

These days, all it takes is some small, easy to miss flaw to potentially throw a card into the "1" category. I have always viewed the "2" or "Good" category as the cards that are pretty beat up but not having the horrible flaws that make you say it's one of those cards that makes you kind of say this is just a poor card that couldn't get much worse.

So, I think this PSA Wagner is very much worthy of the "2" grade based on the way I have always graded cards going back to the "olden days" before professional grading. I have always thought a heavily creased card with severely rounded corners was a "2" or a "Good" card. A "poor" or "1" card had to either be so heavily creased to render the image so poor that you couldn't make out the image, or there had to be some other major flaw such as a piece of the card missing or a hole, etc.

Again, just my two cents, but I think the hobby has become waaaaay too critical on the low end of the grading spectrum.

Last edited by cmcclelland; 04-15-2012 at 10:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-15-2012, 10:40 PM
FrankWakefield FrankWakefield is offline
Frank Wakefield
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Franklin KY
Posts: 2,718
Default

I'm not as knowledgeable about grading as most of the folks who've posted.

Only way I could see that card as a 2 would be if it were a 2RDCOCOG.

2RDCOCOG, ie 2 Rounded corners, Dirty, Creased, Off center, and Over-Graded.


It's a 1, and it would be a nice one for any of our collections. I'd like to have that card, and I'd bust it out if I had it. A soak would get rid of some of that non-original dirt that's been added to the surface over the years.

Last edited by FrankWakefield; 04-15-2012 at 10:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-15-2012, 11:29 PM
E93's Avatar
E93 E93 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drc View Post
If you ignore the grade issue, it's a nice looking card though. 'Honest wear' as they would have used to call it.


.

I agree. Nice looking card.
JimB
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-16-2012, 01:34 AM
drc drc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,621
Default

I'm not active at all in collecting graded cards, but I've in person looked at graded T206s belonging to my friend. Some of the 1s look so nice, I wondered if the real beaters of the world would get a -1. I mean, I've had 1933 Goudeys that looked as if they were used coasters raised from the titanic.

Last edited by drc; 04-16-2012 at 01:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-16-2012, 07:27 AM
steve B steve B is online now
Steve Birmingham
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 8,087
Default

Wagners have always been odd when the grades are used.

The one sold at an auction house in CT a few years back got resold 3 times after roughly every 6 months. It had creases and writing on the back. and vg ish corners.
CT auction f-g -sold for 30K
next auction g
next auction g-vg
next auction vg

And along the way each auction house was bigger than the previous one. As was the minimum bid.

Going to the auction was fun. I only bought one card, but having a card that was once in the same box as a Wagner is as close as I'll ever get.

Steve B
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-16-2012, 08:20 AM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

SGC would likely give this a Fair 20, which is what I believe the card should grade.

For PSA, it's too nice for a 1 but not worthy of a 2. Do they have a 1.5? I don't think so.

And when it comes to Wagners, there certainly is grade inflation. I have to think the submitters are lobbying for a higher grade. So much money is at stake, even for a half grade bump.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:37 AM
DJR DJR is offline
David Ros.enberg
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 274
Default

.

Last edited by DJR; 07-31-2016 at 09:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:07 PM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmcclelland View Post
This is just my two cents worth, but I think it is very funny how critical the hobby has become about distinguishing between what the numerical grade is for a low end card.

My opinion is that a card that is graded a "1" or "Poor" grade should be an extremely "poor" looking card that almost does not look like a card any more. To me, this means things like pieces of the card that are missing, holes in the card, very bad marks or writing on the card, extreme paper loss, etc. To me, this was always the standard back in the day.

These days, all it takes is some small, easy to miss flaw to potentially throw a card into the "1" category. I have always viewed the "2" or "Good" category as the cards that are pretty beat up but not having the horrible flaws that make you say it's one of those cards that makes you kind of say this is just a poor card that couldn't get much worse.

So, I think this PSA Wagner is very much worthy of the "2" grade based on the way I have always graded cards going back to the "olden days" before professional grading. I have always thought a heavily creased card with severely rounded corners was a "2" or a "Good" card. A "poor" or "1" card had to either be so heavily creased to render the image so poor that you couldn't make out the image, or there had to be some other major flaw such as a piece of the card missing or a hole, etc.

Again, just my two cents, but I think the hobby has become waaaaay too critical on the low end of the grading spectrum.
I really enjoyed reading this post, although I disagree with you. In the "olden days" we did not have grading companies. Yes, an old guy might have called this 'good', but you would have looked at it and paid what you thought it was worth (unless buying through mail with no picture, in which case you might have been able to get a refund).

The grading companies job was to give a grade that consistently represented the issues (or non-issues) with the card. PSA has not done that with this card - almost every T206 that they grade in this condition will get a lower grade. And as far as refunds, many sellers fall back on: "no refunds for professionally graded cards."

If a card gets a 2 when it deserves a 1, the price is affected, like it or not. If you have 4-5 bidders and even ONE of them is willing to pay for that 2, then the card brings more than it would if it were raw. Yes, the card has good eye appeal, especially for a 1 - 1.5, but not for a 2.
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:27 PM
drc drc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,621
Default

I thing changing grading systems for certain cards, especially certain cards involving big money and well healed buyers and sellers, is bad for the grading company. Somewhere down the road some pipsqueak on eBay or some chat board is going to say, "Yeah, well know PSA does gives grading favors for certain companies and people in the hobby," and people are going to say, or at least think to themselves, "This poster's an obnoxious twit, but he has a valid point."

Doing stuff like this just gives credence to and fuels the conspiracy theories that exist in any hobby.

My personal opinion is that raising grade scales for certain cards is really, really bad, for many reasons. In my opinion it defies the very reasons and foundations for having a standard grading system, it's unethical, it looks bad and is getting close to sleazy.

Last edited by drc; 04-16-2012 at 12:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:30 PM
vintagecpa's Avatar
vintagecpa vintagecpa is offline
M!ke S@il£r
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 386
Default

What are the general guidelines for a T206 card to receive a (MC) qualifier? Not that they would ever stick such a qualifier on a T206 Wagner.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-16-2012, 02:00 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
KEVIN MIZE
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: VALDOSTA, GA.
Posts: 6,301
Default

the grade is a joke....
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-16-2012, 02:17 PM
Runscott's Avatar
Runscott Runscott is offline
Belltown Vintage
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,651
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drc View Post
....Somewhere down the road some pipsqueak on eBay or some chat board...
'Pipsqueak'?!? that one's so old I had to look it up.

Synonyms: cipher, dwarf, half-pint, insect, insignificancy, lightweight, morsel, nonentity, nothing, nullity, number, pip-squeak, pygmy (also pigmy), shrimp, snippersnapper, twerp, whippersnapper, zero, zilch
__________________
$co++ Forre$+
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-16-2012, 02:19 PM
barrysloate barrysloate is offline
Barry Sloate
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 8,293
Default

Snippersnapper??? I learned a new word today.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-16-2012, 02:57 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 30,264
Default

GOOD 2: Good
A PSA Good 2 card's corners show accelerated rounding and surface wear is starting to become obvious. A good card may have scratching, scuffing, light staining, or chipping of enamel on obverse. There may be several creases. Original gloss may be completely absent. Card may show considerable discoloration. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Price of T206 Wagner forecast Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 2 12-22-2008 09:05 PM
Money for T206 Honus Wagner of Cobb/Edwards Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 34 12-07-2008 07:35 PM
Baseball Card - T206 Wagner 'Sweet Caporal' Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 6 07-14-2007 10:45 AM
Memory Lane Auction - 15 Minute Rule Lasted Forever? Archive Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 11 04-16-2007 05:15 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:18 PM.


ebay GSB