So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?

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Posted By: Chad

200,000 plus the buyer's fee. If I had it, I would do it. A once in a lifetime card.

--Chad

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Posted By: David Vargha

Once for now at least.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Steve M.

who's Pete Hill?

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Posted By: H Murphy

?

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Posted By: Joe Jones

He is a new hall of Famer. Check him out here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Hill

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Posted By: Mark

Hal, your FL use tax would be $13,800.

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Posted By: Steve M.

what is that about 200K?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Where is it for sale?

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Posted By: Marc S.

In ryan's next auction.

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Posted By: Wesley

After the $30,000 buyer premium, that card will cost the winner $230,000.

Is there any good reason why a Cuban card of Pedro Hill should be valued the same as a PSA 4 Baltimore News Babe Ruth?

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Posted By: fkw

The difference is how many cards are there of Babe Ruth, and how many cards are there of Pete Hill. Thats the difference.

Some collectors collect a card for every Hall of Famer.

Anyone can find a card of Babe Ruth, but a card of Pete Hill is a far different story.




BTW I didnt know it would go for that much, but I knew it was in high demand.

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Posted By: Wesley

There is so much demand for that card, that it can be valued as high as $230,000?

That is several times the price of the highest graded Toleteros Josh Gibson card. So does the Cabanas Pedro Hill replace the Toleteros Gibson as the single most important card from Latin America now?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

"BTW I didnt know it would go for that much, but I knew it was in high demand."

It hasn't gone for that much--that's the asking bid when the auction opens next week.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

$200K?? I'd rather have a bunch of Cobbs, Ruths and Mattys for that kind of coin!

Frank

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Posted By: JimB

I think he would be wise to significantly lower the minimum bid. If it is really worth that much, it will get that much. But there is no precendence for that yet.
JimB

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Echo Frank and Jim.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Perhaps this is another instance where it will get one bid from someone who does not come through with payment...

but the owner of the card has now established "market value" in the eyes of some?

(similar to the T210 Jackson on EBay)??

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Posted By: Chad

If you went to the owner of the card--not Ryan, btw--and tried to deal for the card, 200K is the minimum you'd have to pay, I'd guess. I'm sure he's just as happy with keeping the card as he'd be with selling it. There are only 2 Pete Hill cards extant, and only one copy of each card and this Cabanas card is by far the better of the two.

As for rather having Cobbs, Mattys, Ruths, etc., we each have our own obsessions. I'd rather have the Pete Hill. It's a great card as it represents not only the coming explosion of baseball in Latin America, but also the card is emblematic of the series when black players proved they were every bit as talented as their white counterparts. The Cabanas set was issued to commemorate the Tigers tour of Cuba and Jose Mendez, Pete Hill and Bruce Petway starred for the Cuban team that gave the Tigers all they could handle. In fact, after the series, Cobb swore he'd never again play against black players and he never did. It was a crucial series in the history of baseball and that there are cards of it is a small miracle, IMO. This isn't to knock Cobb cards or Matty cards--my T205 and T206 Mattys are two of my favorite cards and I'd never part with them and I'd really love to have a V100 Cobb if I can ever save up the scratch--but I'm just trying to give some idea about why the 200k asking price isn't insane. And I haven't even mentioned that Pete Hill was a great player, one of the early black superstars along with Louis Santop and Home Run Johnson and a mainstay on the Chicago American Giants, the New York Yankees of the nascent Negro Leagues and also the barnstorming circuit at the time. Hell, if the Hill were my card, I'd want more than 200k for it.

--Chad

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Posted By: Robert

In just my opinion if practically no one on this board knows of Pete Hill and have to do a search in order to find out. I seriously doubt that Mr. Christoff is going to get any bids on a card that practically nobody knows about. The Reccius Wagner is at least known about and also one of a kind as far as we know for the time being and it won't come close to those kind of dollars. Personallt I have no interest in a Pedro Hill baseball card.

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Posted By: Chad

The card is a consigment, it's not Ryan's card. 200k is the minimum the OWNER OF THE CARD wants for it. If it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell. That people on this board know of or don't know of Pete Hill is not a reflection of Hill's greatness as a player or his historical importance or the importance of the card. Those of us who do care about the Negro Leagues or Latin baseball, or the history of baseball as a world phenomenon know how cool this card is. There are more of us than you may think.

--Chad Johnson

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Serious question:


Let's say the owner has someone bid on the card for him and it sells for $200,000 and returns back to the owner.

The owner (through the buyer) has to pay $30,000 to Ryan...

but has he actually "made money" by setting the market value of a $75,000 card that he still owns at $200,000??

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Posted By: James Feagin

It's not a reflection of the player, but a reflection of name recognition, which leads to price. I personally could care less about such a card. I appreciate their talent, but for my collection, Japanese and Cuban cards are compliments, not a centerpiece.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Hal, you have asked this "strategy and price setting tactics" question applicable to other low population cards. The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind; for no one can know what the motivation of the seller is, with certainty.

My guess is that the seller may have acquired the card for far less than the $75K value which you speculate, and currently will only part with the card for his price. No tactics, just facts. From the sound of this thread, my interpretation is that the Hill card in question is held by a collector with sufficient love for the history, complimented by deep enuff pockets to obtain this card whenever he did. Perhaps recognizing initially if Hill ever made the Hall, there could be a relative bonanza. But is now in the trap of holding a rare, desireable, and valuable card and not really needing to cash it in. And not really wanting to either. No strategy, just feelings.

But seriously, if I knew anything, Id be holding the card right now.

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Posted By: Chad

There's no funny business going on. The owner just doesn't want to part with the card and has set a price so that if he does have to part with it, it was an offer he couldn't refuse. The only way it sells if there is somebody out there who loves the card as much as he does AND has the discretionary cash to make a bid. That's a real small subset of people. I love the card but don't have the cash, like most of the other people who lvoe the card. Those with the cash, well, a lot of them probably would rather have a whole crapload of Hutchison Communications stock or a Monet, or whatever. We are weirdos, you know.

--Chad

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I think a lot more simply than you give me credit for, Chad. If I was to buy that Hill card - that would amount to over 6000 cases of beer that I couldn't drink. Now who in their right mind would sacrifice 6000+ cases of beer for any baseball card?

Ooops, did I say that out loud?

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Posted By: Chad

That is a lot of beer. But, if I had enough money to pay 200k for a card, I'm guessing I'd still have enough money to keep myself in beer. Oh, who am I kidding. If I had $230,007.00 that card would be mine. I'd have just enough left over for a six pack!

--Chad

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Posted By: Mark

So long as these negro league hof cards (aside from the Gibsons) continue to be sold almost exclusively in non-competitive avenues - private sales and auctions with extremely high minimum bids - it's hard to tell what they might sell for in a competitive bidding situation.

There's no precedent for what most of the cards in Ryan's auction are worth post-induction announcement, so why not start them all at a dollar and let the market forces decide? Otherwise, the winner takes a huge risk that he would not be able to get his money back when it comes time to sell. Someone who wins the Pete Hill, for example, can only be assured that the card would sell on ebay for somewhere between $30k and $230k. That risk is not present in the case of high-dollar cards sold in REA or Mastro because (i) it's a competitive bidding situation so the winner knows that someone was willing to pay one increment less and (ii) nearly all these cards either have a track record or are similar enough to cards that do have a track record that there is some consensus among collectors as to the cards' value.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Mortgage the house, do whatever, to get it, because it is worth a heck of a lot more.

Which brings me back to the answer to the inquiries on this post: If the card is "worth" $230K+ in the eyes of a collector, someone will pony it up. It is all about perceptions. IMHO, it is not yet worth that much money (if it indeed ever reaches that level); I'd rather have any of a number of other cards (T206 Wagner or Plank, Baltimore News Ruth, T210 Jackson, 1948 Leaf Rocky Graziano, certain 19th century early cabinets, etc.) than the Hill card. Just my preference, so don't jump all over me, guys, but I think my preference is shared by the vast majority of the vintage collectors out there. Which isn't to say that someone might not want to buy the card, but I don't think right now is it. Frankly, if I was buying on a six-figure budget right now I'd rather make a serious run at the Josh Gibson autographed PC; what a card!

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Posted By: Chad

I sure don't think it will and I don't think the seller does either, which will be a relief to him. I WOULD buy it if I could. Do I think everyone should feel this way? No, I don't and, frankly, it's a relief that not all of you guys dig the same stuff I do because I don't need the competition. I wouldn't pay six figures for a Wagner, but I understand why people do and respect their ambitions. I don't feel the need to jump into every T206 Wagner post or the Reccius Wagner posts and tell everyone I wouldn't pay X for that card. When it comes to the Negro League/Latin stuff, people sure aren't shy about jumping in and proclaiming their indifference. When I post about the Negro league/latin cards, I figure I'm posting for the people on the board who collect/admire/are interested in the cards. They are vintage, no? I don't post about them excessively, I think. I really love them and, after 10 years away from the hobby, my discovery that there were real live cards of Hilton Smith and Quincy Trouppe and Oscar Charleston, something I used to daydream as a kid about, that these cards exist and could be bought was a revelation. I own a Martin Dihigo card and 3 years ago I didn't think that was possible. All right, I'm officially off on a tangent. Need beer. Where's Gil when you need him?

--Chad

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hal, is there soemthing you want to get off your chest?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Chad, you are doing just fine; educating many of us who do not fully grasp the history, passion and skill of these past heros, rogues, and survivors. It seems a little ironic to hear the lament that the best cards these players who were denied mainstream exposure, are not typically offered in mainstream auctions. This too will come around, Im sure.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

No, not at all.

I am just worried about a "bubble" in our hobby... and I think it will be inflated even faster if more cards are sold in situations where the entire "marketplace" is not involved.

On the flipside, I own a lot of cards, so I probably do better financially if the bubble continues to grow!!

Obviously the two recent "open" auctions for the T210 Jackson cards show that the $180,000 bids on the "private reserve" EBay auction were bogus.

Thus, any "misconceptions" as to the value of that card have come and gone... but I know FOR A FACT that some folks in the interim were offered the chance to buy a T210 Jackson for the "bargain" price of $150,000.

I have no problems at all with the Pete Hill card... except that I would like to know who the owner is so that we can find out later if he bought the card from himself.

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Posted By: Chad

The owner has posted the card several times on the board. A quick search of past posts should turn his posts with scans of the card up.

--Chad

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Posted By: Robert Zimmerman

How were these cards distributed?

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Posted By: Chad

Just like T cards.

--Chad

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Posted By: Robert Zimmerman

Is this card in particular a shortprint?

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Posted By: Chad

As far as I know. Other cards in the set are floating around, but the card of Pete Hill is the only one extant. Somebody should correct me if I'm wrong, tho.

--Chad

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Hal,

Eff you and your accusations. Just because you shill the prices up on stuff you consign doesn't mean everyone else does as well.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Paul

How did we suddenly turn to a discussion of the first female Hall of Famer?

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Posted By: Mark

"Effa Manley co-owned the Newark Eagles with her husband Abe Manley, whom she married in 1935. She ran the business end of the team, handling scheduling, travel, payroll, promotions, contracts and all the other daily details, from 1936-1947.""

Paul, what better day to discuss Effa than Administrative Professionals Day?

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Posted By: Rhys

Ryan

I dont think Hal was saying your auction is crooked as we all know you run a clean business and offer the best stuff from your niche in the Hobby. I think he would have made the same comment had it been any auction house offering this card for sale given what someone recently attempted to do with that T210 Jackson. He is not saying that there IS going to be a problem, just that somebody could theoretically do what he mentioned with shill bidding and attempt to raise the value of the card for a future sale. Consequently, if the owner of the card is known to several people in the hobby, it does not seem likely that this would happen. I am sure the owner is just like the rest of us. I am pretty sure that EVERY piece of sports memorabilia is for sale at a price, he has just set the price at what he would be willing to let the card go for.

Also Ryan, why was Esteban Prats not given more consideration for the Hall? Everything I can find points to the direction that he was a great player but I saw no mention that he was even a topic of conversation among the recent Hall candidates, but I have yet to see any career statistics for him.

Rhys

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Ryan:

I am in no way accusing you of being "part" of the plot.

If someone consigned a card to Mastro... and then had their friends bid it up to $200,000 so that they could win it back... THE AUCTIONEER IS NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG.

If the original owner of the card (who is also the after-auction owner) wants to pay $30,000 in "buyer's fees" to pull this off... I DON'T THINK HE IS DOING ANYTHING WRONG EITHER.

That's why I was asking seriously whether anyone knows of anyone who has ever done this and successfully sent the market value of a rare card through the roof???

Are you going to deny, however, that you and the owner of the card are not good buddies??

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

To put this in perspective, here's a hypothetical: If this guy who no one has ever heard of, is worth $230K, what if a 1 of 1 card was "discovered" of a true star like Josh Gibson? What would that be worth? [hint check out lot #4 in REA].

Frank

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Posted By: David Vargha

As Hal would quickly tell you Frank, that is a postcard.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Hal,

I disagree with you that the consignor wouldn't be doing anything wrong if he decided to shill the card up. Whether he pays the buyer's premium or not, it's still shill bidding. It's still bidding on your own item. It's still wrong. Perhaps we just have different opinions regarding ethics within the hobby.

Why do you think the opening bid is so high? It's because that's the very least the current owner would consider selling the card for. It has nothing to do with any objective "market" for the card. It has nothing to do with the "value" of the card. It simply means if someone wants the card, that's the very least it will cost to own it.

And yes, I'm good friends with the consignor. What exactly is your point? I'm much better off taking consignments from people I know and trust, people who would never consider the kind of ideas you regularly scheme up, than from people like you who see no problem in bidding on their own items as long as their willing to pay the buyer's premium.

Incidentally, every single item in my auction that is on consignment will be noted as such in the auction description.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Frank,

That Hill guy who no one has heard of is a member of the same Hall of Fame those Ruth and Cobb guys are.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Ryan:

Where do you think that I have ever shill bid an item of mine up?

I don't even think I have ever even SOLD an item on EBAY... and can't bid on my own items in Mastro, Lelands, REA... and wouldn't anyways.


NOTE: It is NOT "shill" bidding if you are going to keep bidding until you WIN the item. The only way it would be "shill" would be if you were driving up someone ELSE and then making them pay more for the item.

If someone is CRAZY enough to pay $30,000 FOR THEIR OWN CARD... you think that is "morally" wrong?

I don't.

I just think it is MENTALLY wrong.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

"Frank,

That Hill guy who no one has heard of is a member of the same Hall of Fame those Ruth and Cobb guys are.

-Ryan"

Gee, Ryan thanks for that info!

BTW, he's still the guy no one has heard of.

Frank

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Posted By: jay behrens

If no one has ever heard of him, then how can he have been elected to the HOF?

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Mark

"Why do you think the opening bid is so high? It's because that's the very least the current owner would consider selling the card for. It has nothing to do with any objective "market" for the card. It has nothing to do with the "value" of the card."

Ryan: As a hof collector, it's quite disturbing to read that the minimum bids in your auction bear absolutely no relation whatsoever to your assessment of fair market value. If I understand you correctly, if someone were to win Hill and flip it on ebay, the winner might realize a mere fraction of the $230k+ he or she paid.

In your own words, you are permitting consignors to set minimum bids that you feel exceed fair market value, and you are the foremost authority on the fair market value of these cards. That is not how other bb card auction houses - REA, Mastro, Lelands, etc, - operate. Other auction houses establish opening bids at less than fair market value. If you are going to operate fundamentally differently from other bb card auction houses, shouldn't you warn collectors who might be spending 10k or 35k or 230k on one card that the minimum price they're paying may exceed fair market value??

Mark