WOW! PSA! T206 DOYLE! WOW!!!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/blog/index.php

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

...is that it is a card irresponsibly created by PSA for use in its coffee table book and not intended for distribution.

That is, I doubt that PSA unwittingly authenticated such a blatant fake. Not that they haven't or wouldn't -- but given PSA's decision to showcase this card, I have to believe they made the card for their book -- as opposed to use a fake (poorly catalogued at that) for their book.



_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

The card was not made by PSA. It is in collector hands.

JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Sarian

The fact that the cert # in the picture checks out on the PSA site as a legit card is disturbing, if in fact the card is as obvious of a fake as has been stated...

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

"The card was not made by PSA. It is in collector hands."

The simple explanation is usually the truth. It is just mind-boggling.


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Months ago I saw a scan of this and was informed about it by a confidential source. I am not an expert on the subject so will defer to those that are....regards

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

It's one of those cards that on a first glance you say "that doesn't look right."

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

Just another PSA mistake, why all the fuss?




Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

The "Polar Bear" issue aside, can someone please explain to me where the typeset is off? Yes, I did read the full REA blog and I enlarged the PSA photo and put it next to the extra-large (and clear) image of the SGC Doyle REA provides on the blog a few posts down. I, for some reason, cannot pick up on the differences in text. It could be I'm just missing it but can someone show me where they are different?

Edited to add:

It could just be I'm not seeing a clear enough scan of the PSA 5 example. I just can't see what Leon, et al were refering to above when I try to make out the different sizes of the typset.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I'd like to know what happens at PSA when a high profile card like a Doyle NY NATL comes in. Does it just go through the same scrutiny any regular old card gets or do the graders (and Joe?) get together and discuss it before entombing it?

[Archive]

Posted By: peter ullman

Dan....good point...I've heard it said that every order is handled the same...how could it be? If it were my business...there'd be committee grading...to achieve better consistency...like diving...take the highest and lowest score and throw them away and avg the rest. It would be a special occasion where rare and special cards came in and I'd want everyone to see them and help evaluate...sounds like fun to me!



How can REA be sure there are no more of these...unless all 3 originated from the same original source? There are definitely thousands of undiscovered...most likely original T-206's out there..somewhere?

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug

I figure the head graders would be the ones to look at all the high dollar cards, but that's just a guess.

[Archive]

Posted By: marshall barkman

Peter is right there are 1000's of undiscovered T-206's out there....i bought over 400 undiscovered T-206's about 8 months ago and am currently looking at another collection of over 600 that have been stored away for over 90 years. All i can say is that i would like to have been in the tobacco business back at the turn of the century.

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

Something like this can put skilled forgers out of business. After all, isn't it pretty neat that if you're not good at that sort of thing, not only will your work pass muster, but it will be even more valuable than a deftly-done forgery because it will be perceived as a new variation?

[Archive]

Posted By: rand

i do not belong to the psa boards, i do not know what is protocal there. what i have heard is psa will screen the commments and remove any negative remarks against the company. this being said... will Orlando post a message with an answer about this card, mistake or not, will psa take responsibilty publicly?????

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Jon Canfield

Wow - I certainly see the difference now.

======================================
For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit http://www.baseballandtobacco.com

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam

Can someone crop in on just the "N.Y. NAT'L" parts of both cards above and post just that? I would do it myself if I knew how.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Recall our discussion about 2 months ago on this forum.......

I said......

"There are at least 4 - 6 other "Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'l" cards in circulation that are GRADED....and, are FAKES !


You replied......

"What scares me the most about what you've said are the implications. A number of fake Doyle errors have already
been slabbed. Yet to an expert such as yourself they are detectable due to the lettering being off."


Well, it was just a matter of time; and, one of these fakes has surfaced....and, no less it is the "POLAR BEAR" version ! !

So, where are the others ?



TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Jon: I realize you answered your own question already, but (to state the obvious) the two problems with the PSA 6 Doyle font are:

(1) the location of the printing at the bottom of the PSA 6 version is not lined-up the same (from the left and right margins) as on real T206 Doyle's; and

(2) the PSA 6 font is simply different -- each letter appears slightly wider than on a real Doyle (this seems most obvious to me on the "D" and the "O").

One would think that such a rare card would be subject to stricter standards at PSA. Joe Orlando himself should be the one double-checking the graders and comparing scans of real Doyle NY Nat'ls before sealing that slab. Really, how hard would it be to send scans to one or two T206 experts, to get their "off the record" opinions. There are a dozen people on this board alone that would have determined that card was a fake from a scan, in 30 seconds, and have done it for free.

Amazingly stupid. And add to that the Polar Bear back, and it is an even more ridiculous mistake (since Piedmont 350 is the only known back for the Doyle Nat'l).

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

Adam,

As requested:

PSA 6




PSA 2

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

If Im not mistaken, the difference is that each letter of NAT'L on the fake are the same sized caps, while on the original, the "N" is a larger sized cap while the "AT'L" are smaller caps.


Hasn't this always been considered a dead giveaway of a fake t206?

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam

Wow, thanks Jim, that's clear as day and night now.

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Isn't it ironic that this fake is prominently displayed in a coffee table book published by PSA?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

How many vouchers will PSA have to give to fix this one?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim VB

"I'd like to know what happens at PSA when a high profile card like a Doyle NY NATL comes in."


Here's my best guess:

1. Open the package.

2. Determine if it belongs to Dan McKee. If yes, toss the cards out with the box (This save time later.)

3. Determine if it belongs to MB3 or macboube. If yes, lower the grade on every card by at least 2 grades.

4. Determine if it belongs to one of the "BIG" auction houses (You know, not Barry Sloate or B & L.) If yes, raise the grade on every card by at least 2 grades.

5. Return the cards at least 2 weeks after they are due.



Incidentally, I've garnered this info without ever using PSA, but by only reading the boards here!

[Archive]

Posted By: PC

Jim: that is exactly what happens, except you left out the very first step, which is:

1.A. remember to affix your PSA Grader badge to your "I'm an asshat" t-shirt.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

"the $64000 question"

I think this one is going to cost them well into six figures. It is not pretty.
jimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Disturbing. PSA needs to deslab that card in a hurry.

[Archive]

Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

I do remember that exchange. What has been added to the mix now (and IMO hilariously so) is the notion that instead of regarding a variation in the lettering as evidence of a fake, it is being used as evidence of the card being a newly-discovered version of an original! And all because PSA slabbed it! Maybe if those guys gave their blessing to GM and Ford stock, the whole auto crisis could have been avoided.

[Archive]

Posted By: Doug

Are any of these Doyle cards legit or are some just better fakes that actually got the lettering right?

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

I know we bash PSA a lot, but at least they generally get "Polar" spelled correctly. Then again, maybe I'm just being too lenient and haven't looked at enough of those slabs.

--
Mike

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott B.

I found this link in t206Museum regarding doyle NY nat'l. Interesting article.



http://www.t206museum.com/page/discussion_3.html>

[Archive]

Posted By: jdrum

"Polor" is an undiscovered (until now)variation of the Polar Bear back.

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

COREY

This story is starting to sound like the sleazy politicians, who have screwed up our economy.

To say that a new "VARIATION" in the "Nat'l" lettering has been discovered to justify why
this card was graded is sheer "B-S" ! !

When already, the POLAR BEAR back betrays that this card is an outrageous "FAKE" ! ! ! !

Come on guys.....a MAGIE error only exists with a Piedmont 150 back......

and, a JOE DOYLE error only exists with a Piedmont 350 back.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Rick McQuillan

Mike, this card is the rare "Polor" Bear back. This is almost as rare as the Peedmont and Sweaty Corporal backs.

Rick

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

They need Barry to do some editing over there at T206 Museum.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Oh,my...

My jaw continues to drop in disbelief and,sadly, disgust.
Even without my glasses, I know better than to let this one pass.

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve Murray

"To say that a new "VARIATION" in the "Nat'l" lettering has been discovered to justify why this card was graded is sheer "B-S" ! !"

Presume everyone knows that this alternative was presented "tounge in cheek"

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian

non-official word from PSA regarding this card... "labeling error"

[Archive]

Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Thanks for the SCANS guys, especially the close ups!

Marty

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

It's ok... they only made one more little mistake. Let us be tolerant.

Leon, a Brinks truck full of vouchers,

Jim VB, wonderful analysis!!!


From a legal standpoint, I can envision PSA only sending stuff via UPS or FedEx, that way they avoid mail fraud issues.

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob D.

Sort of like Christmas in January for you, huh, Frank?

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

As Jim said in the other post, go with grading, you know the card is legit and unaltered that way. PRICELESS

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Yes there are legit Doyle's



Bill Huggins found one in a large buy and Larry Fritsch acquired 2 or 3 in the 1970s, 80s.



Charlie Conlins is as real as it gets as I had that one in my hand years ago and is now in the REA auction.



PSA and ORLANDO are a JOKE!

[Archive]

Posted By: MikeU

The interesting part is the thousands of dollars worth of self published books they have celebrating a fraudlent card. Do you toss the books or hope that only 1% of the hobby will know and understand and steam ahead with distribution with SMR renewals?

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric B

It has to be real. According to the article, it was originally graded a "5". then it got a "6" on a resubmit. So it passed by twice!

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Well put Eric, how could they have missed twice? and how can the same card be a different grade each time? Nevermind, I think I get it.

[Archive]

Posted By: judson hamlin

Every time I think "Gee, I should spend some of my hobby budget on getting my cards graded" instead of trusting my own judgment as far as condition and authenticity of raw cards, something like this comes along and reaffirms my faith in the whole grading scheme. Yup, those graders really have it all over me.
Stop me if my sarcasm is dripping on anyone's keyboard

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Man....I see Dan McKee is over this forum tonite.

Dan this phony card has you really excited. I guess I should be excited, too.
Two months ago I posted about some fake Joe Doyle's that were graded and the usual skeptics
pounced on me. This one with the Polar Bear back was one of the graded fakes I noted.

Oh well, I guess I should have the last laugh....but, this is actually a sad situation for our hobby.