My son's National epiphany

[kailes2872]

I gave an account of our experience in the live National thread. It was our first trip and it was a couple of great days with my boys.

My son is a modern/auto/patch type collector. I don't understand it. I can't wrap my mind around how expensive some of those cards are. But, he spends his time, money, and energy collecting those - especially autographed pirate prospects.

While at the show, he was enthralled with the pre-war cards. He really dug the '33 and '34 Goudey's. He also liked the T-205's with gold borders. And, like me, he gravitated toward the beautiful T3's. By Saturday, I could see him going to the pre-war tables and just admiring inventory.

One dealer had an awesome display that included a $75k+ 1915 Cracker Jack set, two other early candy complete sets in the 75k+ range, as well as a range of very nice high end singles.

Yesterday, on the way home from church, Conner told me that he was going to start collecting pre-war. He makes $25 every two weeks in allowance (with part going to offering and part going to savings). He also dog sits and referees for youth soccer. So, he has a few dollars on him at any given time, but, in the end, he is a 15 year old with a 15 year old budget.

He told me that he is going to start looking on Ebay for some cheap low grade cards just so that he can say that he has them in his collection.

Being that I am a post-war set collector (for now), can anyone give advice on where he should start? Would he be better off looking to secure low grade Goudey's or T206's? Should he only buy slabbed (A, 1, 1.5, etc) cards to avoid counterfeiting? Is there a pre-war vintage set that is easily attainable and affordable that he could be begin to chase - (perhaps without the HOFers)?


He did an ebay search on 33 Goudey on a raw beat up card yesterday (Bill Jurges) that went for $7. However, it was ungraded and he wasn't sure if he should buy raw pre-war or if it would be a fake.

I think it is pretty cool that the National inspired the change in his collecting habits, but I want to make sure that he is wise and goes after the right stuff.

I appreciate any feedback and thanks for being such a solid resource!
Kevin

[Matvoo]

Exactly for me Im 14 and i just changed my collecting habits 2 weeks ago from modern to pre war

[Econteachert205]

Kevin, I would worry less on ebay about people faking low grade goudey and t205-06 commons and more about the issue of trimming. You guys should really decide if having trimmed cards in the collection matters to you or not. If it does, graded 1's in goudey, and t's are cheap enough, certainly under 20. If the trimming is less of a concern, I would then look at raw cards on ebay and then cross reference borders to graded listings. After a little while you can def. tell an obvious trim. Also consider whether marks on a card bother you or not. I personally don't care if one of my 05's or 06's has a mark on the back, but they bother me on the front. For your son, going from mint to beat, he'll have to look at a bunch of cards and decide his limits on condition. Budget wise it sounds like he could probably pick up one every 1-2 weeks. Also kudos on getting him to put money in the collection plate, sounds like a good kid all around. Good luck!

[4815162342]

Kevin, I really enjoyed your post. It sounds like you're raising your son up in the right way. For budget's sake, I don't think you could go wrong starting him out with a few low grade, common back T206s or T205s (PSA 1 or SGC 10).

[kailes2872]

Daryl,
Thank you for the kind words. He is a good kid. He helps teach the 1st and 2nd graders at church. He made the all A honor roll last year and is taking a combination of Honors and AP courses and has played for the school soccer team since 7th grade (tryouts next week, we are keeping fingers crossed!).

Unbeknownst to me, he set up an account today (He got a Net 54 Babe Ruth pin from Leon this past weekend and got set up to be able to see the B/S/T section.

He just told me that he set up a WTB post in the T206 section. He is going head first into his quest. He has a dog sitting service and has a client lined up for this weekend, so he is already spending it before it comes in!

[Jantz]

Hi Kevin

Some good advice given here so far, but I would recommend going a different direction with your son's pre-war collecting.

Instead of buying a bunch of cards in low grades, why not save some money up and buy one nice card at a time.

An older gentleman once said to me "If all you buy is $10 cards, in 10 years all you are going to have a collection full of $10 cards". He meant no slight towards anyone and how or what they collect. He just knew me well enough to give me some sound advice and I understood what he meant.

Your son is 15 and in a few years he will most likely be in a better financial situation. When he gets to that point, he may want and will be able to afford pre-war cards in nicer condition. What will he do then with his lower grade cards? Probably sell/trade them off for nicer cards that he wants. There is nothing wrong with that of course.

I would skip that step though and pick up a few nicer pre-war cards now. If his collecting interests changes directions in the future, pre-war cards in better condition are easier to sell/trade.

Its nice to hear that your son appreciates the old cards and still enjoys modern cards too. On occasion I open a few packs of modern myself.

Hope this helps

Jantz

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Jantz

Your son is 15 and in a few years he will most likely be in a better financial situation.

yeah, 'cause when i was 18 i was rolling in cash

Kevin, great choice of name, btw

[steve B]

What I did was to start with a type collection of sorts.
T205
T206
T207
33 Goudey
34 Goudey
35 Goudey
36 Goudey
39 Playball
E91
And eventually
T201
T202
E90
Am N172 (Old Judge)
A couple strip cards.

If you pick them up in VG, maybe Vg-ex ungraded you can handle them and get a good feel for the cardboard, and what an untrimmed one feels and looks like. It's even less money if you look for commons with maybe a bit of back damage.

I picked up beaters of all of those before I was 18. Of course it was a bit easier back then than now IF you lived in a town with a card shop. I eventually spent for a few nicer condition cards once I got a part time job. (Should have bought more nice t206 commons and maybe fewer beat ones. If it's "investment" save up for better cards of stars)

I finally bought an second T207 late last year/early this year. So now I have 2 Although if you could see the first one you might disagree.

I was also lucky to pick up a handful of really beat George c Millers and a T204 that wasn't bad. And a truly awful condition T3. Plus a T222, helmar and Piedmont stamps and a silk.

That makes for a pretty decent prewar type collection.
I collected postwar right up to the then new stuff, as well as other sports and non-sports. Sort of still do, just not all at the same time. I'll take breaks from one set and look for some cards from a different set or sometimes just run across something I like.

Steve B

[vthobby]

Some good advice so here is my 2 cents. I totally understand the adage "buy expensive cards" but at his age (and I'm sure he is eager to get going) it does not really sound practical.

Ultimately it will be up to your son. He needs to forage. Buy, trade, read books, sell. Peruse NET54 for tons of ideas.

I am close to 50 years old and my first purchase (through the mail) was a T206 Sam Crawford that I bought from "The Trader Speaks" in the 1970s. It was maybe a 2 or a 3 on the grading scale but I will tell you that the $18 I sent through the mail was like a thousand to me since it was all I had at the time. I waited for that card like it was Christmas in July. When it arrived and I saw the colors and held that baby.......well, lets just say I was hooked! Regardless of the condition, at that age, I had to see all conditions to learn about grading and preservation of cards.

It is also healthy to make mistakes as this will build a solid foundation. We all make them but over time, hopefully they will subside.

My opinion and we all have one is to save his $$ each week or two and buy a card or two. Different sets, same set, it does not matter as his interests will change over time and he will eventually find his groove.

Bottom line, is there is no right answer. Try a few different ways and ideas and the light will "click" so to speak. Just this past weekend in Vermont at a local show, I bought 2 different 1933 Goudeys graded a 2 and a 3. The pair cost me $50!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sometimes, the deals will appear out of nowhere. I also buy low grade Goudeys ungraded from time to time and pay around $10 to $15 per and have never bought a fake one or trimmed. To see the difference in real vs reprint have him buy a real Goudey for $15 or so. Have him buy a reprint Ruth say for $2 and when side by side and with the feel of each in his hands, he will know......trust me on this.

Great post. Good luck to him. PM me with your address and your name and I will send him something cool (vintage and real). Au Gratis.

Take care, mike

[vthobby]

Steve,

it looks like you and I were typing at the same time with some similar advice. Good stuff.

Mike

[kailes2872]

Great counsel - thanks so much.

Jantz,
I appreciate the feedback and I think I'll push him toward decent presentable cards with clean fronts. If the backs are marked or stained, that is a place where he can compromise to save some money. When he had this idea yesterday to head down the pre-war path, he had visions of graded cobbs dancing in his head. He then did a price check and had a quick reality check. So, he is wanting to build a presentable collection at a reasonable 15 year old budget. Where ever he can, I will push him toward higher graded examples

Conor,
I love the T3's at your store. I was like a moth to a flame every time I saw one at the NSCC this past weekend. When i get my last 4 post war sets completed I am going to get some of those for my collection! As far as the name, I won an arm wrestling contest with my wife (it was close) but we have his middle name after her dad who had just passed.

[kailes2872]

Mike and Steve,
Thanks for the feedback. I think I will guide him to pick up examples from different issues versus going head first into the monster.

He is pretty excited so I am trying to help him keep the passion while controlling it - as it is a long game. The CJ 15 set that he wants won't be happening for a while but he can set his sites on a low graded example from the set.

I really appreciate all of the input.

[SteveMitchell]

Kevin...

From your posting, it's obvious you have a fine relationship with your son.

Others have made a number of excellent suggestions. I would especially agree that a Type collection would introduce Conner to what the cards actually look and feel like, and could make an exceptional display - if that appeals to him.

In the end, of course, it comes down to personal preference and budget. For me, creases do not trouble as much as ink-on-front . Frankly, creases give the old cards character.

T205's in fair or so condition still retain the essence of the card and provide a great look at deadball era baseball. (The bio's on the back really are a plus for me and the player selection represents the time well.) T205's carry many of the features of today's cards: color, interesting biographies, facsimile autographs (on the NL'ers) and "gold" borders.

Another possible avenue which is still affordable (though not nearly as appealing to most as colorful cards like T205's) is the Exhibit card. Large format (postcard size) and available (at least post 1938) at quite reasonable prices, one can put together quite a representative collection for not too much money. Again, if creases are acceptable, the prices are even more tempting.

This is a great hobby. I hope you and your son stick with it.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Some good advice so here is my 2 cents. I totally understand the adage "buy expensive cards" but at his age (and I'm sure he is eager to get going) it does not really sound practical.

Ultimately it will be up to your son. He needs to forage. Buy, trade, read books, sell. Peruse NET54 for tons of ideas.

I am close to 50 years old and my first purchase (through the mail) was a T206 Sam Crawford that I bought from "The Trader Speaks" in the 1970s. It was maybe a 2 or a 3 on the grading scale but I will tell you that the $18 I sent through the mail was like a thousand to me since it was all I had at the time. I waited for that card like it was Christmas in July. When it arrived and I saw the colors and held that baby.......well, lets just say I was hooked! Regardless of the condition, at that age, I had to see all conditions to learn about grading and preservation of cards.

It is also healthy to make mistakes as this will build a solid foundation. We all make them but over time, hopefully they will subside.

My opinion and we all have one is to save his $$ each week or two and buy a card or two. Different sets, same set, it does not matter as his interests will change over time and he will eventually find his groove.

Bottom line, is there is no right answer. Try a few different ways and ideas and the light will "click" so to speak. Just this past weekend in Vermont at a local show, I bought 2 different 1933 Goudeys graded a 2 and a 3. The pair cost me $50!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sometimes, the deals will appear out of nowhere. I also buy low grade Goudeys ungraded from time to time and pay around $10 to $15 per and have never bought a fake one or trimmed. To see the difference in real vs reprint have him buy a real Goudey for $15 or so. Have him buy a reprint Ruth say for $2 and when side by side and with the feel of each in his hands, he will know......trust me on this.

Great post. Good luck to him. PM me with your address and your name and I will send him something cool (vintage and real). Au Gratis.

Take care, mike

I think this ^ post is pretty spot on.

As nice as it would be to buy 'nice' prewar cards as a 15 yr old, it's really not practical at all. I mean if he wants to save up for a month or two at a time to get enough cash to buy one card, so be it, but if he is like I was at that age, I wanted cards...and more than one per month. I know they won't be flowing in like crazy either way, but there are plenty of decent looking 1's and 2's floating out there for $15-$25 a pop that your son would be ecstatic over...at least in T205's and T206's.

I don't think your son can go wrong with whatever way he wants to collect...I mean, that's a lot of the fun...being able to pave your own way to collecting and not really be forced one way or the other. As far as condition goes, I've learned to appreciate the aged look on my vintage cards...really adds character to them. Sometimes it can be hard going from modern to vintage because most modern cards are Mint or bust.

My advice would be to buy some low grade...maybe a few graded and a few raw to see what he prefers. If it looks untrimmed, go with that or ask someone with enough knowledge to help out. For T206's, most commons in poor condition go for comparable prices with trimmed examples, so he won't be losing out even if it is trimmed.

I wish your son the best of luck collecting, even if he goes back to modern...I actually collect some modern and love it! Vintage and prewar is not for everyone...just remember that To each his own.

[kailes2872]

Steve,
When I was 8 years old (in 1980). a really nice teacher's assistant gave me a shoebox full of 71-75s. There were probably 200-300 cards and all were stars. Several Aaron's, Mays', Clemente's, Kaline's, Gibson's etc.

I was 8 and all I did was collect baseball cards - yet someone told me they had value. So, I asked my mom to take me to a local card show. I proceeded to sell everything for $8. I am not sure why I was so eager to sell. All I did was collect baseball cards and I wasn't going to be able to buy anything better than what I just sold.

In recent years, I have collected all topps sets back to 1957. I will keep going until I get all of them and then leap into prewar.

The one thing I have tried to instill into the boys is love the cards for the joy of collecting not the dollars. If it is about the dollars then we can take your allowance and find a mutual fund.

I don't mean that they shouldn't appreciate the value and find the best deal, but to this day, I regret that decision to sell my cards for $8 - even though they have all been replaced. It is probably why I can't seem to part with any of my doubles even though it could help the progression of my set building.

When I go, the boys know my cards will be there and they are not supposed to sell them. Of course, if they are destitute that is a different story, but hopefully that won't happen.

Long winded way of saying, I think I have them down the right path of enjoying the hobby for all of the right reasons versus what a VCP or card target or SMR or, Beckett tells them their collection should be valued. I hope it sticks but I think the foundation is there.

[mrvster]

T206......T206......T206......T206!

o.....

did I say,

T206


can't go wrong trust me!

commons to get feet wet....

hofers to invest


...rare backs....errors/variations to go nuts (with when advanced)


enjoy the monster

[Matvoo]

Oh mrvster
You are a t206 addict

[Luke]

I'd recommend he pick up a few low grade, presentable cards of his favorite HOFers. '33 Goudeys, T206, T205, T201, game cards would all be good places to start. I would advise against any kind of set building on such a tight budget. Some people have the right resolve to work on the monster for 20 or 30 years, but most bow out because the task seems too daunting when cards are coming in very slowly.

When I was 17 and got my first job I did pretty much what I am advocating. I collected HOF RCs, which included a few T206s and Goudeys. They all appreciated over time, and even though I moved away from post-war, I was able to trade or sell most of them for a profit when I returned to collecting a few years ago.

The good news is it's hard to really go wrong. Most of the major pre-war sets are going to hold their value, so even if he started out getting a bunch of low-grade T206 and then changed his focus, he could get his money back when he sells them. Good luck, whatever he chooses!

[glchen]

I would advise:

(1) Buy raw, but purchase cards with nice eye appeal. (e.g., if your son is focusing on lower grade, then look at cards with slight back damage or other defects that don't detract too much from the eye appeal of the card.) However, for big name cards (like Cobb, Ruth), you should probably buy graded.

(2) If it's too good to be true, it probably is. (e.g., if you are purchasing a card that is raw or not from the Big4 TPG's of PSA/SGC/BVG/GAI, and the HOFer or other big name seems to be really cheap, the card is probably a counterfeit or Altered/Trimmed at best)

(3) Be careful when purchasing raw as if a seller describes the card as VG, it may only be comparable to a card that is graded as poor by a reputable TPG. That is, don't always compare the price of a graded card that is VG to a raw card that is described as VG by a seller. Trust your own eyes and if the seller does not offer a back scan, ask for it.

(4) When possible, compare prices with previously sold history on ebay. This will give you an idea whether you are overpaying for a card, as you should be especially wary of purchasing BIN's as these are typically overpriced.

(5) Always buy cards you like and have fun. If you are always purchasing cards where after you purchase the card, you never look at it again, you should re-assess whether you are really collecting what you want. If you are always unhappy with the condition of the card after you purchase it, you should probably look to collect higher grade cards. If you are constantly selling your cards soon after you purchase them b/c you want to upgrade them, you'll inevitably lose a lot of money which could be going to more cards.

Good luck to you and your son!

[tjv815]

Kevin,
It's great to read about your experience with your so at the National. I have two young sons and a daughter, and I am hoping one of them, if not all, will have a passion for card collecting as I do. Right now, the boys will take any card, and put it in their binder - whether it's a 2014 Brock Holt, or some old Superman cards from my friend the Guru.
Anyway, just a thought. Why not look to build Pirate (I believe your son's favorite team) team sets with some of the pre war sets. I do that with both the Red Sox and White Sox. It's a great way to add a number of different cards and learn about the issue and players of the past. Granted, some cards are out of reach now, but this is a lifelong hobby. So much fun.
Whatever the decision, I am sure this will be a fun start.
TJ

[kailes2872]

We are on the same page. He told me that he wanted to collect a T206 Pirates set but I had to remind him...

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

We are on the same page. He told me that he wanted to collect a T206 Pirates set but I had to remind him...

If you love your son you'll get him a Wagner for his birthday.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by kailes2872

Conor,
I love the T3's at your store. I was like a moth to a flame every time I saw one at the NSCC this past weekend. When i get my last 4 post war sets completed I am going to get some of those for my collection! As far as the name, I won an arm wrestling contest with my wife (it was close) but we have his middle name after her dad who had just passed.

Thanks, Kevin. It's tough to let them go, but nothing I can't replace down the road.

I'm glad to see your son joined the board. I was going to suggest that, but he was one step ahead of me. I think the BST is a safer place to shop for a greenhorn than Ebay.

[kailes2872]

Originally Posted by ZachS

If you love your son you'll get him a Wagner for his birthday.

I guess it is time to come clean to him that he doesn't really own a Wagner card that cost 2.8mm...

[kamikidEFFL]

Hey kevin, I have to agree with everyone here its just great to see young collectors get more involved into the hobby. I myself am only 30 and been basically collection since I can remember off and on for years.

I as a kid loved ripping packs open and pullling out a Ken Griffey Jr UD RC but now these new cards don't hold any value. They move so quickly like the swing of the bat. Hot one week and the next week they are not. Plus another thing with the new stuff is a regular RC isn't worth the paper its printed on. You need the special refractor, triple patch, autograph and low # for the card to be worth anything.

Anyway, to the real point how does a young kid with a small budget get involved in the Pre-War trading card game. Easy buy what you can afford and what you like. When I got into the Pre-War/Tobacco collecting I started off with the T205 set and bought what I could afford when I could afford it. The great thing with this era of cards is there are so many. Low grade stuff is fun to grab when you can but sometimes saving for a lil bit to grab that bigger name guy is even better.

Another nice way to start for a collector is grabbing some HOFers from the 50's. They continue to hold value and down the line maybe trading/selling them to buy more of the Pre-War stuff. Anyway its just great to see him going into the vintage stuff. Just tell him to have fun and enjoy the time building his collection.

ALSO----Make sure he updates everyone on how his collection comes together.