Ebay power seller protection program

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Posted By: brian parker

Got a response for Samantha from Ebay--looks like all of our efforts came to nothing. Here is the response I received back:


Thank you for providing us with the details about this situation.

We are concerned about violations on the site and have thoroughly
investigated your report. In accordance with our site policies, we have
found that there is not enough evidence to show that a violation has
taken place. We understand your concern about this situation, and can
reopen the investigation if any additional information can be provided.


What else needs to be provided? A seller has two ID's, and has placed multiple bids on their own auctions. Good Golly.

Brian

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Posted By: David

I agree, Brian. If this case doesn't offer enough proof of shill bidding, than no case ever will.

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Posted By: brian parker

Some of you other people who sent in a complaint to Safe Harbor will have different luck. I provided all the pertinent lot #'s and user ID's, and pointed out both users claim to be Broadway Rick's. I just can't believe it.

Brian

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

watch your own back...

Ridiculous!!

Well, I guess someone has to offer crooks a good and profitable home. I hear jails really suck.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

Q. Can sellers bid on their own listings?
A. Not any more. eBay originally allowed sellers to bid on their own listings as a way to close their listing without selling to the highest bidder. Unfortunately, this privilege was abused so it had to be eliminated. Now, bidding on your own item is considered shill bidding and is not allowed.

So what gives?

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

[Archive]

Posted By: scott (runscott)

Interestingly, I got a msg that the item was already under investigation. So the ebay loser department closes the case, says they will consider additional evidence, then do everything they can to discourage any additional evidence.

"This is the clearest case of shill bidding I have ever seen. The winning bidder NSPORTS is the high bidder on an item sold by BRSZ-2. Both are the same ebayer: Broadway Rick's at brsz@mindspring.com

NSPORTS even identifies himself as "Broadway Rick" in the description of an item he was selling: 1824103685.

BRSZ-2 identifies himself as the same "Broadway Rick" and gives the exact same email i.d. in the item in question: 1843485321

As a buyer, I was stunned to see this guy doing this, but I feel confident, that since this is a flagrant violation of your rules, that you will do something about it.

Thanks,
Scott"

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I also got the "not enough evidence" response.

I tried to send another message to safe harbor, and eBay rejected it.

I tried to complain via their complaint mechanism, and since they already have an open complaint, they rejected that, too.

I posted a message on their Safe Harbor forum, where I gave links to both auctions, and it was deleted within five minutes.

I posted a message where I didn't mention Rick and I didn't mention the link, and I haven't gotten any particularly interesting responses.

bruce

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Posted By: David

I will include a note on this episode in my next newsletter which has a wide and varied readership. It appears to me, and frankly in other cases, that eBay is pulling an Arthur Andersen and protecting fraud rather than discouraging it. If shilling is illegal, I fear that eBay may find themselves in hot water down the road.

I note that I am not a punitive person and would have been satisfied if eBay merely acknowledged that there was shill bidding and sent a warning.

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Posted By: jay berhens

with this response, someone should ask eBay just what kind of evidence is needed to prove shill bidding. If this isn't enough, then no amount will be enough and there is no reason why we all shouldn't be shill beidding. But how much do you want to be that if any of us tried this, we would get our accounts suspended.

Jay

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I have tried this. If you ask them, they'll tell you that they won't tell you.

bruce

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Boy are we at the mercy of Ebay.

I think we should have a dirty laundry award sponsored by EBay, for all the bad sellers like Rick and others.
I think David may end up having the biggest impact with his mewsletter if Ebay won't do anything about the matter.

If Rick is set up at the Nationals maybe we should throw a dirty sock or underwear on his table as we walk by.



He's just filling his underwear for Rick.

Lee

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

If eBay won't police itself they way they should in what appears to be a clear violation of its own rules, has anyone thought about giving the "evidence" to a local TV station? Most of them have periodic features where they intercede on a consumer's behalf (for instance, ABC News in NYC has a feature called "7 On Your Side").

It may not yield any better results, but if it gets on local news (or better yet national) it would be a huge black eye for eBay.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

It's hard to believe that this company can survive when their employees cannot perform basic functions. All I have seen ebay support or powerseller support do is send form letter email replies...or...nothing.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

If you haven't seen it, it's worth checking out The Auction Guild. The woman who runs the site is a diehard eBay powerseller who publishes a newsletter detailing eBay info, concentrating on their screw-ups. She gets quoted in a lot of non-complimentary articles about the site... Whether it makes any difference at all in how eBay operates depends on your disposition, but at least someone is making an effort.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I think Kevin has the right idea. I would suggest contacting one of the major newspapers (NY Times for example) with the information you have and let them go from there. I bet this turns into a story. I would also inform Ebay that this is your intention. This may get them moving.

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...and here it is:

I know now that you have received several compaints about this shill bidder, but because he is a Power Seller, you choose to sweep it under the rug, as you have already informed several of the complainants that nothing will be done. I've been a police officer for over 10 years. If you can't see the clear evidence in this criminal fraud, you need help in defining what "evidence" is and what constitutes "fraud". There is training available. Go to this link on Network 54, and take a look at the plans people are making right now to expose this:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1027535355&lp=1027565654

Why do you want to involve the media, newsletters, and other informational outlets to expose this clear "whitewash" of your own rules over one dishonest seller who clearly drags "good trading practices" through the mud?

I think a clear, hard look must be given to your procedures, and make sure your procedures mirror your policies. In other words, WALK YOUR TALK!

Sincerely, a concerned customer,

Dan Mathewson


OF COURSE, as soon as I submitted this, I got this message:

"Email on this item has been sent, though this item was already reported."

So, we'll see if they actualy read it, or jsut sh**-can my new complaint, too... Cheers!

-dan

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Posted By: Paul

I still haven't received a response to my complaint about the same shill bidding (you know, the "sweet and innocent" approach). I guess approach does not matter at all.

I think going to the media is the right idea. Perhaps another idea is to go to some ambitious assistant attorney in one of our 50 states. Given ebay's clear rules against shill bidding, and the public's right to rely on those rules, I suspect that Broadway Rick's conduct could be criminal fraud, though I'm not a criminal lawyer. We have more than enough evidence that ebay knows precisely what's going on, and a lawyer looking to make a name for himself might try to bring charges against ebay for covering up or conspiring with Rick. In the current Enron/Arthur Anderson environment, this could play real well. But maybe I'm just dreaming.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

But, It was Dated June 2, 2000. 2years old and nothing seems to have changed with ebay, just more evidence against them.

Lee

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Posted By: David

I agree and disagree. Overall, I think eBay does a good job, and I have enjoyed buying and selling on it. They run a good show, except for one or two points they could fix.

The one or two points they could fix are not minor points. eBay allows, though loopholes or lack of foresight or oversight or whatever you want to call it, people like Libertyforall to cheat people out of money. I will bet that eBay has received over 100 serious complaints about these sellers, but eBay doesn't care. Day in and day out, 40%(estimate) of the featured items in the Pre-1950 Graded bb cards section is AAA and NASA graded. I am not an active card buyer or seller, but would think this would be an embarassment to those who are active in this area.

Secondly, shill bidding is illegal, and I don't beleive the eBay has the right or privledge to allow illegal activity.

As I said, I think eBay is an overall good place and merely wish that they would make some fine tuning. As I mentioned before, I just wish they would get rid of the private auctions except for limited circumstances. If they did that one thing, I would be happy.

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Posted By: Da Mathewson

I don't think i can agree with the logic that we must not "bother" eBay becuase of one bad bidder's behavior.

1. More than one Power Seller pulls this crap.
2. Fraud is a felony, no matter the dollar amount. It should be dealt with as such.
3. eBay makes money off of every dollar sold on eBay. They are making even more on Fraud (the frauds are usually big money items, nobody is going to fraud someone over a $2.95 take), and they then Capitalize on the Fraud, especialy when they have rules against it, know it is going on, then whitewash and ignore it.
4. Leaving them alone, because the action is of one of its bidders and not eBay, is like saying "leave the catholic church alone, it's the few priests, not the church molesting and raping kids". Different severity, same mentality. The Church knew, covered it up, moved it's offenders around, allowed them to continue offending, all the while knowing all about it.

eBay, same thing, different crime, protecting its own: its big-time money makers. It's BS. They make huge money off of it, they know about it, therefore they are equally guilty for being the knowing vehicle for it to occur.

Sorry, I don't buy that. eBay is just as guilty, perhaps moreso.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

If you let something exist in a less-than-ideal state, it will stay that way. Ebay jumped quickly into a niche, we benefited, now it needs to improve; however, if it doesn't, I am confident that something else will take its place. Some of us have tunnel vision - the only thing we see that even approximates ebay is Yahoo auctions, which is laughable. Again, ebay is "online auctions" still in its infancy - it survives as a perpetual infant because it has no competition and no one has pushed them to protect the honest and punish the criminals.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: warshawlaw

One of the shortcomings of an article like that one, and one of the things that puts off the "real" reporters and authorities from the story, is that it names a few names but doesn't have the "5 W's" of journalism: who, what, when, where, why. This Broadway Rick's thing is a great example. If the nitty gritty details are thrown out there and sent to major media outlets and state and Federal authorities, the odds of action are much, much greater.

PS: The touted eBay antifraud software obviously doesn't work. BRSZ'S shills don't bid on anything but BRSZ auctions and yet they still are not detected.

PPS: Broadway Rick's Scam Zone has now switched to the private auction format; so much for private auctions not being a shiller's haven.

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Posted By: Eric

I just read an interesting article on the web about shill bidding and ebay. I don't know how old the article is but it's interesting.

Here is the link to it if you care to read it:

http://www.geocities.com/ebayoyvey/ebayshills.html

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Posted By: leon

Should somehow be allowed for good business....Scott Gaynor is a very good ebayer and does them. I would hate to screw everyone for what a few do. I have even thought about doing a few private auctions myself so folks don't know who they are bidding against....which does make sense in some cases (especially high end items)....just my sheckel worth...regards all

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

I recently had an auction that I did quite well on, but apparently could have done better. One of the bidders didn't like the looks of one of the other bidder's ebay handle and feedback, asked me to contact the "low feedback" guy. So I sent an email and got contact info...not good enough for the other bidder - he then asked me to make a phone call...said he might pull out if I didn't. So I did and guess what?...the guy I called was very polite but quit bidding on the auction altogether, and the guy who asked me to make the phone call, and who said he would have that card at any price?...well, he stopped bidding shortly thereafter.

The guy with the low feedback turned out to be an old collector who is just getting back into the hobby - his current feedback shows that he's a stand-up guy and I've spent quite a bit of time with him on the phone discussing vintage collecting and the "old days" (before I was around).

The odd thing is - all three of the bidders involved are great guys and extremely knowledgeable collectors!

Would have made a real good "private auction".

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: john(z28jd)

the only problem with that idea is theres alot of people that wont bid on private auctions,but if we knew the seller and knew the reasoning maybe that wouldnt matter....all i know is i dont bid on private auctions,but i also dont bid against people i know unless the card is one i never see and have to have,which happens very rarely

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Posted By: Macrae (not Mark)

I dislike this guy and shill bidding as much as anyone, but I'm feeling a bit unsure about the gang mentality brewing here against Ebay. They are obviously wrong on this issue and Rick is obviously a bum, but here's a thought; just ignore the guy and don't bid on any of his auctions. I'm sure that putting down your swords and not fighting the good fight against Ebay sounds like blasphemy to some of you. However, as an educated and careful collector, I think Ebay has been the goose that lays golden eggs for quite a few years now. It has allowed me to build a collection far beyond what I could have ever done dealing with dealers only via SCD, etc. It has also allowed me the opportunity to meet and become friends with so many great fellow collectors. Maybe ignoring Rick and others like him eventually brings places like Ebay down and allows him to get away with scamming some unfortunate collectors. However, maybe forcing the issue and trying to punish Ebay in the press, etc because of a lame guy like Rick leads down a slippery slope that might end up killing the golden goose.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Ignoring the problem will not solve it or make things better. If all the complaints do kill eBay, so what. I am sure there are a number of business people that would jump in to fill the void left by a collapsed eBay because they proved that this is a very lucrative business. We haven't seen any real competition because no one has the guts to take on eBay and the current economic situation doesn't help right now since dot-coms cannot get any investment/startup capitol. Once that changes, maybe we will see a viable alternative to eBay.

Jay

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

regardless of the handles being connected to the same "account".....he probably used a different computer ( " I.P. " ) to make the bids so there is not conclusive proof that the "person" who bid and the "person" who won are in fact the same........

I know this because e-bay gay harbor informed me, ( personally*** I live less than 400 yards from the main office! )that it could be someone else from the same "entity"??? "company" "group" " conglomerate " et politically correct bologna.....but technically ( all they will care about if money loss is at risk ) they are correct. Rick had Guido do it! Scott has the runs...

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Look at the ebay items that started out the BRSZ-2 thread--the seller(s) of those items proclaim that they are Broadway Rick's. There is no IP issue here, the facts were admitted to by BRSZ in its own ebay listings.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

ebay's standard action is to protect the Powerseller - they look for any excuse or reason possible to avoid ruffling their feathers.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

As someone once said, "Follow the money."

When everything is said and done, EBAY is just like the CARD GRADING COMPANIES. They each are going to do whatever puts the most money in their pockets.

Large volume card submitters get better grades,just as large volume sellers get to do whatever they damn well please on EBAY.