Reporting live from the Hunts Ted Williams auction

[RichardSimon]

Yeah, but when crazy/stupid try to sell those $1000 baseballs where are they gonna go?

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Yeah, but when crazy/stupid try to sell those $1000 baseballs where are they gonna go?

Flea markets. If they're lucky.

[Runscott]

edited: removed non-autograph content, as inappropriate for this forum. My bad.

[thekingofclout]

Originally Posted by Runscott

edited: removed non-autograph content, as inappropriate for this forum. My bad.

like

[glchen]

I thought the 1915 Red Sox photo w/ Ruth went for a good price. I was the high Internet bidder but ended up losing by an increment.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Runscott

edited: removed non-autograph content, as inappropriate for this forum. My bad. (sorry about the duplicate post)

This isn't the autograph forum -- this is the vintage memorabilia forum.
Non-autograph content welcome.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by CW

This isn't the autograph forum -- this is the vintage memorabilia forum.
Non-autograph content welcome.

Well, Jimmy got it. Hey Jimmy - I picked up a group of Ted and Dimaggio photos in the Hunt Ted Williams auction. I would post them here, but none of them are autographed

[drc]

I'd be worried, they don't come with JSA LOAs.

[Splinte1941]

To put this issue to bed, I have spoken directly to David Hunt, whom I respect and I have dealt with for years. He wouldn't know me if I walked into him, but that's irrelevant.

All I will say is that anyone who does business with this guy should know they are dealing with one of the most honest guys in the industry. Period. I went off the deep end on Saturday and overreacted. Dave and I have not threatened each other, nor do we have any standing disagreement over any aspect of the lot in question or this transaction. And if anyone thinks I've been pressured or persuaded to post this, please think again.

Shit happens, fellas.

EDIT: This doesn't change any statement I made regarding the realized prices on the modern, Green Diamond stuff. Total insanity on the part of those bidders.

[scooter729]

Jake, thanks for the update - does that mean you will be keeping the picture?

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Jake, thanks for the update - does that mean you will be keeping the picture?

Yes. I didn't get an answer as to why Spence decided to pull their COA and replace it with a no-opinion and while that bothers me, ultimately the photo was too rare IMO to let pass. Regardless of the signature, I'm willing to gamble that this photo could be one of a kind and that was my motivation. The fact that Dave was willing to guarantee it came from Williams possessions provides enough smoke for me that there's fire as well.

Either the autograph is legitimate or it's not. The TPA is hired to offer an opinion. It was given and then taken back. This situation is as strange as you'll find.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Well, Jimmy got it. Hey Jimmy - I picked up a group of Ted and Dimaggio photos in the Hunt Ted Williams auction. I would post them here, but none of them are autographed

Ah. My sarcasm meter must've been on the fritz.

[Runscott]

Sorry

The autograph-drama was getting old...again.

But back to what was apparently the only interesting part of this thread: the 'W' is horrible - this is NOT rocket science, and it's a shame that it appears to be so for so many autograph collectors.

Forget about LOA's and COA's until you've first used your God-given eyeballs.

[drc]

That's all well and good for you theists, but what about the rest of us?

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Sorry

The autograph-drama was getting old...again.

But back to what was apparently the only interesting part of this thread: the 'W' is horrible - this is NOT rocket science, and it's a shame that it appears to be so for so many autograph collectors.

Forget about LOA's and COA's until you've first used your God-given eyeballs.

So you're saying you don't like it?

[Runscott]

No, I don't like the 'W'. There might be other things wrong with it as well, but that one letter was pretty obvious.

If anyone can show other examples of his signature with a 'W' like that, please do. Then the next step would be to question whether or not those are authentic. Perhaps they were all (if there are more than one) done during Ted's 'creative signature' phase, or maybe they were done by a secretary or someone else signing for Ted.

I am extremely cautious when purchasing something like an autograph - I look at LOTS of examples first, and if there is anything whatsoever about the item that says 'run', I leave it alone and wait for the right one.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Runscott

No, I don't like the 'W'. There might be other things wrong with it as well, but that one letter was pretty obvious.

If anyone can show other examples of his signature with a 'W' like that, please do. Then the next step would be to question whether or not those are authentic. Perhaps they were all (if there are more than one) done during Ted's 'creative signature' phase, or maybe they were done by a secretary or someone else signing for Ted.

I am extremely cautious when purchasing something like an autograph - I look at LOTS of examples first, and if there is anything whatsoever about the item that says 'run', I leave it alone and wait for the right one.

Thanks. If we have to move this to another thread so be it but I would like additional feedback. The TPA in question provided a COA and then removed it and gave a no-opinion not a rejection. From my experience that's unique...to say the least. I have purchased the photo regardless but information is appreciated.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

Thanks. If we have to move this to another thread so be it but I would like additional feedback. The TPA in question provided a COA and then removed it and gave a no-opinion not a rejection. From my experience that's unique...to say the least. I have purchased the photo regardless but information is appreciated.

Since the auction's over now, I doubt anyone really minds. Since I last posted, 'someone' has shown me another example with a 'W' that looks like yours. Could be that's the way he signed during that period.

Bottom line - if you gather what info you can, and you are happy with the situation, then that's all that counts.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Since the auction's over now, I doubt anyone really minds. Since I last posted, 'someone' has shown me another example with a 'W' that looks like yours. Could be that's the way he signed during that period.

Bottom line - if you gather what info you can, and you are happy with the situation, then that's all that counts.

I guess if one looks hard enough information is available.

Check out eBay item # 120855205215

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1939-40-RED-...#ht_3485wt_922


We're getting warmer...

[Splinte1941]

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/Aucti...e-Signed-Photo

I'm at the end of this journey. Thanks to Dave for the bargain on Lot # 37. It's taken me 5 minutes to find exemplars others say didnt exist.

[Tedw9]

I got there just before the break, which gave me time to walk around and take pics.

I was able to land lot 682, a bat thought to be used by Ted as a hitting instructor. I was happy with the price, I think it ending near the end of the auction helped my cause and my wallet.

[perezfan]

Yep... the later lots always seem to be a better bargain. I have been to Hunt Live Auctions, in which less than a dozen people remain in the room when things are closing down (last hundred lots or so).

Congrats!

[thekingofclout]

.

[travrosty]

i wonder if jsa will reverse his decision now?

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by thekingofclout

Here's one more for you Jake. This stellar c. 1940 Williams GPC belongs to fellow board member Ben (foreveryoung).

Attachment 62486

Wow. Thanks King. The reason for the No-Opinion is that JSA had never encountered that style before. If thats true, it's pretty embarassing in light of what's been provided here, but I don't buy that excuse. The "W" doesn't really match but there's plenty of smoke there.

Is Ben taking offers on that? LOL

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i wonder if jsa will reverse his decision now?

Travis, don't bet any money on it. I'll let you know what PSA says for the hell of it.

[RichardSimon]

GPC's can be secretarial, not saying that the above one is, just saying they can be.
Here is one that is from an insurance application in 1949.
I would say with 99.999% certainty that it is authentic.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

http://www.lelands.com/Auction/Aucti...e-Signed-Photo

I'm at the end of this journey. Thanks to Dave for the bargain on Lot # 37. It's taken me 5 minutes to find exemplars others say didnt exist.

No one said they didn't exist. If you are happy with the examples that you found, and with the signature you bought, then that's all that counts.

I'm overly-cautious when I buy autographed items, and the 'good' examples I found did not match up. But as I stated previously (I think, twice), the thing that bothered me was that no one had any information to give you, despite all the experts on this forum. I finally spoke up with some detail, you found examples, the experts came out of the closet. It's all good.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Runscott

No one said they didn't exist. If you are happy with the examples that you found, and with the signature you bought, then that's all that counts.

I'm overly-cautious when I buy autographed items, and the 'good' examples I found did not match up. But as I stated previously (I think, twice), the thing that bothered me was that no one had any information to give you, despite all the experts on this forum. I finally spoke up with some detail, you found examples, the experts came out of the closet. It's all good.

If you don't think the Leyland's example is close to the one I bought then we'll agree to disagree, but then that's the major problem with this entire business, isn't it? I appreciate your candor and you did force the "experts" to come out of the closet. It is very curious that no one stepped up to offer an opinion here other than yourself. I will probably submit this to JSA as well and see what happens.

[travrosty]

it's just two guys opinion, grad and spence, they don't know any more than you, me or the guys who showed the examples here.

the problem is that if someone like me, richard, or another knowledgable collector on this forum took our time, we could find and catalogue the exemplars shown here and figure it out. but it would take a few hours, jsa and psa don't have a few hours for each autograph they precert.

that is why they have a few minutes to give it thumbs up, thumbs down, or no opinion, which they rarely give a no opinion. that's why their opinion has to be taken with a big grain of salt. they don't have the time to do a thorough investigation.

If it took 7 days of researching for them to figure out that the photo was indeed signed by williams in a vintage form of his signature, then that is something they won't do, because 7 days of salary to them isn't worth it.

but the truth doesn't have a time limit. you can do your own searching, take as much time as you like, and figure it out yourself. and your opinion on the final outcome of whether it is real or not is just as valid, and actually even more valid than the 10 minutes they spent to give an opinion that is under the gun vis-a-vis a time limit.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by travrosty

it's just two guys opinion, grad and spence, they don't know any more than you, me or the guys who showed the examples here.

the problem is that if someone like me, richard, or another knowledgable collector on this forum took our time, we could find and catalogue the exemplars shown here and figure it out. but it would take a few hours, jsa and psa don't have a few hours for each autograph they precert.

that is why they have a few minutes to give it thumbs up, thumbs down, or no opinion, which they rarely give a no opinion. that's why their opinion has to be taken with a big grain of salt. they don't have the time to do a thorough investigation.

If it took 7 days of researching for them to figure out that the photo was indeed signed by williams in a vintage form of his signature, then that is something they won't do, because 7 days of salary to them isn't worth it.

but the truth doesn't have a time limit. you can do your own searching, take as much time as you like, and figure it out yourself. and your opinion on the final outcome of whether it is real or not is just as valid, and actually even more valid than the 10 minutes they spent to give an opinion that is under the gun vis-a-vis a time limit.

Agreed Travis. Thank you for your insight and help.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

it's just two guys opinion, grad and spence, they don't know any more than you, me or the guys who showed the examples here.

the problem is that if someone like me, richard, or another knowledgable collector on this forum took our time, we could find and catalogue the exemplars shown here and figure it out. but it would take a few hours, jsa and psa don't have a few hours for each autograph they precert.

that is why they have a few minutes to give it thumbs up, thumbs down, or no opinion, which they rarely give a no opinion. that's why their opinion has to be taken with a big grain of salt. they don't have the time to do a thorough investigation.

If it took 7 days of researching for them to figure out that the photo was indeed signed by williams in a vintage form of his signature, then that is something they won't do, because 7 days of salary to them isn't worth it.

but the truth doesn't have a time limit. you can do your own searching, take as much time as you like, and figure it out yourself. and your opinion on the final outcome of whether it is real or not is just as valid, and actually even more valid than the 10 minutes they spent to give an opinion that is under the gun vis-a-vis a time limit.

Having worked for PSA in the distant past, I know what you speak of when you talk about under the gun with a time limit.
I am sure that Ron Gordon and Jim Stinson will remember being rushed to do our jobs and the one time we asked to stay over another night to do the job properly and we were turned down by the powers that be.

[Splinte1941]

If you guys are interested in helping me gain some more insight into this signature please PM me. I am willing to compensate you for your time.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Having worked for PSA in the distant past, I know what you speak of when you talk about under the gun with a time limit.

Richard, you know it!

For regular auction lots in a huge auction, they have a few minutes, then they will move on to the next item. if it is a blockbuster item, maybe they will spend more time on it.

if their time is worth 250 dollars an hour, then a 25 dollar submission is worth about 6 minutes of their time. if they spend more than that, they are losing money. so they will go with their best guess. what they should really do is give a no opinion most of the time if they don't know.

but they dont like to do that for 2 reasons.

#1. they don't get paid for it if they give a no opinion.

#2. they think that the collector thinks it is a sign of weakness. if they give a no opinion, then the collector sends it to the other company, which gives an opinion, they think the collector thinks that the first company doesn't know what they are doing because the 2nd company certed it, so the first company kind of feels pressured to give an opinion one way or the other so not to be seen as wishy washy.

what they don't realize is that an honest no opinion is nothing to be embarrassed about. not every autograph in the world can be figured out and it is honest and ethical to give a no opinion.

a no opinion does NOT mean the autograph is bad. some collectors think that this is what it means, but it doesn't. It simply means they cant give a definite opinion one way or another. it still might be good, might not be. but a no opinion is not a death sentence.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

If you don't think the Leyland's example is close to the one I bought then we'll agree to disagree, but then that's the major problem with this entire business, isn't it? I appreciate your candor and you did force the "experts" to come out of the closet. It is very curious that no one stepped up to offer an opinion here other than yourself. I will probably submit this to JSA as well and see what happens.

??? I didn't say anything about the Leyland's example. I'm glad that some good examples have been found that are almost certainly legitimate, that show the pointy-bottomed 'W'.

If you and I had spoken before you bought this photo, I would have said, "The 'W' looks weird - it's pointy-bottomed, and that's not how Williams normally signed. If you really want this photo, go dig around and find examples with pointy-bottomed 'W's, and let's compare them very carefully and decide what the odds are that they are legit."

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Runscott

??? I didn't say anything about the Leyland's example. I'm glad that some good examples have been found that are almost certainly legitimate, that show the pointy-bottomed 'W'.

If you and I had spoken before you bought this photo, I would have said, "The 'W' looks weird - it's pointy-bottomed, and that's not how Williams normally signed. If you really want this photo, go dig around and find examples with pointy-bottomed 'W's, and let's compare them very carefully and decide what the odds are that they are legit."

I misunderstood. My bad. Thanks.

[travrosty]

another collector had posted his 1939 signed photo of ted williams signed front and back on another thread. another pointy bottomed W in each signature, for what it is worth.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by travrosty

another collector had posted his 1939 signed photo of ted williams signed front and back on another thread. another pointy bottomed W in each signature, for what it is worth.

I nearly bought this in Boston last year. I appreciate the post Travis. A truck load of variations in his 1939-1940 signatures. Who the hell knows in the end.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

I nearly bought this in Boston last year. I appreciate the post Travis. A truck load of variations in his 1939-1940 signatures. Who the hell knows in the end.

Yeah, it's odd how many things are different in Ted's autograph during that period. Last night I placed four examples next to each other and there were some very odd differences that would not have come naturally for him - concerted effort to change the direction he moved his pen, or some of them were not done by him.

[Jay Wolt]

Looks like the Ted Williams auction brought in $3.5 million

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Looks like the Ted Williams auction brought in $3.5 million

It was a kick-ass auction - Hunt seemed to do everything right. I feel extremely lucky to have come away with three lots.