Beware Carterscards2006

[nolemmings]

Pardon me if my frustration shows in some of these later posts. I recognize that many here have not read the entire thread or have only skimmed it. Of course, no one is under any obligation to read any or all of it, or to care. Thus far, I have felt compelled to keep defending myself, when it seems that many of the points raised against me either misapprehend what I am saying, misstate it, or ignore it altogether. I am losing my compulsion to keep returning to these same points, many of which are adequately addressed by others here.

So what is the beef here pwilk--let's get you pinned down at least. To paraphrase what I mentioned earlier, if I gathered a hundred of you to review the card and everybody concluded that the card was trimmed, would that satisfy you? Or is it still too bad so sad, no returns. Many here dart back and forth on why I lose, where are you? If you think that I'm stuck whether or not I can prove it is trimmed, fine, state so, and allow me to respectfully disagree. If you feel I cannot possibly prove it to be trimmed and that I lose for that reason, say so, and again allow me to disagree. I fully understand my legal and evidentiary burdens, and I recognize that I am not always right. I think I have a case, you do not. But why not comment on the lack of customer service that caused me to neg this guy and sparked me to write this thread? Anyone.... Beuhler? Should I have given him 5 stars for communication?

As for your question, I have handled thousands of these cards over the years, and have a decent eye on what to spot. The cards are not uniform in size--there is variance-- and so specs are of limited help. When I received the card--which BTW arrived back yesterday from SGC in the GAI holder, as expected, I was concerned about it being trimmed. I wanted another set of eyes on it, and couldn't have cared less what grade it got so long as it was not trimmed. I trust SGC. Yes, I get it--they are not infallible, and if ultimately a judge or jury were to side with some other expert, I would be disappointed that SGC got it wrong. I would then "Man up" and accept the decision. As it stands, though, I believe the card is trimmed. If forced to keep it I will sell it with the notation that SGC has deemed it trimmed. If thereafter it was cracked out, submitted to PSA or Beckett and returned with a number grade I would not bid on it at any price.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks Bill and Leon.

Frank, I don't need the card to be graded by SGC "in the first place". I have cards from these sets in all 5 company holders, including one "PRO" that I know to be authentic and unaltered, albeit overgraded. The holder means nothing to me so long as the card is good. Similarly, I didn't care about the numeric grade, and I submitted this with a request for a minimum 60. I didn't/don't need just a nm example of this card-- I would take one in most grades and my collection of this set spans from grades 2 to 8, depending on back.

I submitted this card because I was concerned about its being trimmed--while some don't mind altered cards, I do, and certainly so at the non-altered price. I submitted it within 24 hours of receiving it, and requested the 24 hour turnaround time, both out of fairness to the seller--if I was going to seek a refund I wanted to do so timely.

I believe the seller wanted bidders to have some faith in this being a GAI card from the Baker era; if so, he is no dummy as to the hobby. He not only advertised it as a "very early GAI" card in big bold letters immediately following the card's identification, he even paid extra to include that in the listing line. Why place such importance on this attribute unless you expected people to consider it significant?

I just noticed that the auction ended on February 1. Above in bold you say that you submitted within 24 hours of receiving it and you don't yet have it in your hands.
Assuming that you paid for it timely, you probably received the card no later than February 7th or so. If you submitted it "within 24 hours of receiving it" and you "requested 24 hour turnaround time" (which I don't believe to be an actual SGC option - they have 48 hour turnaround), then how is it possible that you don't have the card back in your hands yet?

[pwilk17]

I told you - I do not have a beef with you at all. I am making a point. When you bid on the GAI 7.5 card knowing there were no refunds - the case should be closed. As an experienced collecter you as much as anyone know the possibilities buying any card in any TPG holder. Read the post from Peter Spaeth - he says the same thing. I have bought many cards in many situations - Ebay, Large Auction Houses and Privately in all different holders - BVG, PSA, SGC, GAI, PRO and others. It is always a crap shoot as to whether any other grading company will agree with the first grading company. That is the risk you take if you bid on that item in an auction - you know the holder - it is an important part of your decison whether to bid or not. SGC could also easily be wrong - it may not be trimmed. Also, how does the seller know that the buyer will not return a very similar card to the one the seller sent (a different yet very similar card - possibly trimmed) in the same holder? It has been done many times before.

[richieb315]

Send it off to PSA and get a there opinion. GAI says not trimmed. SGC says trimmed. PSA ?. If it was to get a number grade from PSA who do we believe.

[nolemmings]

vintagetoppsguy

I will answer your question, although I question your willingness and ability to understand my answer. BTW, let's see how many here consider your question as to my profession and fees as relevant or in any way analogous.

I provide a service for a fee. I make no guarantees as to outcome. I tell you what you will get from me for your money, how litigation works, what the strengths and weaknesses of your case are, a list of potential outcomes, my assessment of the probability of each, how it might affect your business or life in ways that you might not have anticipated, whether there are other professionals whose advice you should consider seeking, e.g. tax and licensing, etc. You pay for your fair day in court. If I fail to provide you adequate representation, you can take it up with the State Bar and/or, depending on the inadequacy of my performance, sue me for malpractice. If you are correct, you will be paid--even beyond what you paid me if the evidence so warrants.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the issues at hand. BTW, of those steps I outlined above, none has been taken against me in 25+ years of practice. Thank you for impugning my "true character" though.

[nolemmings]

So Peter, if your point is I lose at auction end becaue I got exactly what I should, why bring up that SGC could just as easily be wrong as GAI, or nobody can say with certainty whether it is trimmed? Why bother yourself with such details if it is legally irrelevant in your mind?

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

They would essentially be on the hook for nearly double what the card initially sold for


Not sure what kind of math you are using. They charge buyers 12.5% and do not charge sellers. They would refund to the auction winner what he paid. They would give up the 12.5% the made before and, at worst, lose what the card sold for. But, since auction checks typically don't go out for almost a month after the auction ends they would still have not paid the consignor so it would not be an issue. If the auction winner informed B&L that there was a question with the lot they would withhold consignor payment until the issue was resolved.

This assumes every part of the transaction and turnaround, re-grading, etc...was done in a timely manner.

Somewhere along the way things inevitably will get dragged out in most transactions such as this.

What happens if the buyer decides to cross-over a card a month after they bought it from B&L, and it doesn't come back as they expected?

The consignor has already been paid and cashed the check. Is B&L still on the hook?

$1000 card + 12.5% buyers premium = $1125. A month later buyer comes back and say PSA doesn't quite like this SGC card.

B&L refunds the buyer the full $1125, they have already paid the consignor $1000 according to their terms.

Yes, they have the card back. They can re-auction it as a suspect card now, even if it somehow sells for the full price it originally sold for..........they are still $1000 in the hole for the amount they sent to the consignor...........good luck getting that back.

Seems like a pretty big hit to me for the chance to make 12.5% off a sale.





Maybe Leon and Scott are ok with this. I don't know. I think it would give anybody pause to just brush off as a cost of doing business, no matter their ethical standing.

[pwilk17]

All of my points are extremely valid - that is why I say no refund.

[nolemmings]

Phil, I received the card on 2/7. I sent it by registered mail on the 8th. It was received on the 14th, delivery having been attempted the preceding Saturday. It was mailed by SGC on the 15th, and I received it back yesterday afternoon (although had I not been home, it would still not have been delivered). That is the chronology. I don't appreciate the tone and implication that I have not been honest. If you don't like the explanation, tough @#$%.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Phil, I received the card on 2/7. I sent it by registered mail on the 8th. It was received on the 14th, delivery having been attempted the preceding Saturday. It was mailed by SGC on the 15th, and I received it back yesterday afternoon (although had I not been home, it would still not have been delivered). That is the chronology. I don't appreciate the tone and implication that I have not been honest. If you don't like the explanation, tough shit.

So it took 4 days to get to SGC and you wanted to be timely in "fairness to the seller", then why send it via donkey to SGC? Why not overnight it?

It's wonderful that you can detect "tone and implication" from printed text.

[Mikehealer]

Phil
SGC next day special, it's on their home page this month.
http://www.sgccard.com/
Thought you might be interested.

Originally Posted by pgellis

I just noticed that the auction ended on February 1. Above in bold you say that you submitted within 24 hours of receiving it and you don't yet have it in your hands.
Assuming that you paid for it timely, you probably received the card no later than February 7th or so. If you submitted it "within 24 hours of receiving it" and you "requested 24 hour turnaround time" (which I don't believe to be an actual SGC option - they have 48 hour turnaround), then how is it possible that you don't have the card back in your hands yet?

[nolemmings]

Because SGC requires cards of a certain value to be sent by registered mail, and I had other cards in the order. Good enough for ya? I registered my complaint to the seller one week from receiving the cards, is that unfair?
And yes I do believe your tone and words to be inquisitorial, and I suspect others here do as well.

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Because SGC requires cards of a certain value to be sent by registered mail, and I had other cards in the order. Good enough for ya? I registered my complaint to the seller one week from receiving the cards, is that unfair?
And yes I do believe your tone and words to be inquisitorial, and I suspect others here do as well.

How do you detect tone from a post made up of words?

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Because SGC requires cards of a certain value to be sent by registered mail, and I had other cards in the order.

I've got no dog in this entertaining fight and have no opinion on who's right or who's wrong, but I've always interpreted that SGC requires cards of a certain value to be returned to the owner by registered mail. It's my understanding that the submitter can send them to SGC any way that he or she wants. (And this isn't to suggest Todd mailed them to SGC in a right or wrong way.)

[bobbyw8469]

If thereafter it was cracked out, submitted to PSA or Beckett and returned with a number grade I would not bid on it at any price.

Then basically you are saying that SGC is the premiere grader and all other graders are second tier. I have several examples personally of SGC mistakes that they have made. Would you like me to share them with you?

[oldjudge]

D Bergin-At worst Scott and Leon are out $1000 and have the card. That is the worst case.

Normal transaction: They pay the consignor $1000, the get paid $1125 by the buyer, and the buyer gets the card. Net $125.

Worst Case (Pay consignor, card returned, and cannot recover money from consignor): They have paid consignor $1000, they get paid $1125 by the buyer, the return $1125 to buyer, they have the card. Net-they are out $1000 and have the card.

The worst case is a low probability situation since, even if the consignor was paid, the auction house can request the money back from a consignor if the lot proves to have a problem. In Todd's case he found the problem quickly and this would have not been an issue.
Regardless, I would expect this from a responsible seller or auction house. If I thought I would be treated otherwise I would not deal with that entity.

[bobbyw8469]

If I thought I would be treated otherwise I would not deal with that entity.

Then I guess you aren't bidding on ANY of the auction houses cards (REA, Memory Lane, Mile High, etc), because EVERY SINGLE auction house has a clause relating to resubmitting already graded cards.

[bobbyw8469]

I found something and have posted something that I think everyone needs a refresher course on. I got this from my REA catalog from last year. I am sure everyone is in agreement that Rob Lifson is one of the "good guys" in the collecting world, and I have not heard anyone say one negative word about him on the Net 54 board. That being said, please read article #17 on the below section from his auction book. This is the way that EVERY single auction handles graded cards.....

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Well, I try to stay out of these type of skirmishes, but..............didn't Spence just buy into SGC and bring his own people over?

It's already been revealed in pretty obvious fashion that Spence and his people are in fact discriminating based on what authentication a piece is accompanied by.

GAI apparently has a bad reputation with autographs. It wouldn't shock me if GAI cards become the next target of.............."well if it's in that holder.......it must be bad".


Anyways. My simple take on the matter. If it's still in the holder....refund. If it's not........then don't.

Ahhh, great point and one that I overlooked. And I had been reading those threads- just hadn't thought of them when I posted.

I also agree with what you say- if it's still in the holder-refund. If not,....then don't (but at least try to work it out so everyone involved is satisfied * had to add that ).

Sincerely, Clayton

[vintagetoppsguy]

Seems like the OP has a history of backing out of eBay deals...

http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?Use...ed+by&ref=home

Edited to add 3 things:
1. I have been an eBay member for 8-1/2 years and have never had a negative (over 2600+ feedback).
2. I have never backed out of an eBay deal and I have bought thousands of items.
3. It makes me wonder how many other deals the OP has backed out of and we'll never know because sellers can no longer leave negative feedback.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

David, How many times have you left a negative feedback?

One of the big problems with the old Ebay system was that people were afraid to leave negatives for for fear of retaliation, so if you never left any there is a good chance that you never received one.

I have had 2 negatives on ebay that were retalitory from sellers that I had to drop negatives too and were shortly there after gone from ebay (this can no longer happen on ebay).

I would guess that in all your transactions they were all not positive.

If you reread Todd's original post, you will see that a very big issue is the serious lack of communication from Carter, which to me is grounds alone for a negative. The rest of this thread has just blown into this big Monster that doesn't have much to do with the fact the Carter deserves a negative for his communication skills.

I have brought up a similar type of issue with the same results. THe thread just evolves into a thread that has nothing to do with the original posts.

Bottom line to me is if Carter responds there is a very good chance we have no problem and no thread.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Huh? What does the number of negs I've left have to do with anything? You're trying to spin the situation. I'm simply pointing out that 2 of his 3 negs are for backing out of eBay deals which shows a history that is important in this matter.

But, since you asked, I have left 16 negs and 2 neutrals in my eBay history and the majority of those were in the old feedback days when the seller could leave a negative. See for yourself:

http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?Use...ft+by&ref=home

Any more ridiculous questions about my feedback, or do you want to try to spin this another way now?

[CMIZ5290]

Please let me voice an opinion on this matter. I have purchased several cards from paul@ carterscards without a single issue. Let's face it, if you are buying a vintage gai card, you know what you are getting in to. Maybe you are lucky, maybe not. You will normally pay a fraction of the price compared to psa or sgc graded. That's the good thing. This hobby is not that simple as to think you can buy gai graded cards for $1k and then cross them to a psa or sgc grade and then get $3k for it. If he did not respond to your emails, i can understand the frustration there. Having said that, i have had very good luck with gai graded vintage cards as being the real deal. Hard to believe, but when gai first came out, their prices were bringing more than psa.

[BBSD]

Two grading services disagree and its the sellers fault. I agree its tied 1-1. If the card has been altered since the purchase why should the seller take it back, that would be terrible for him or her.

[Rich Klein]

Todd:

If this card had been graded by SGC with the same number grade as GAI, what is the worth of this card?

Rich

[rhettyeakley]

It seems like this post has "jumped the shark" a bit. I doubt Todd is going to be convinced to see things any other way, nor are those that seem to be disagreeing with him. At least it was interesting at the outset, now it seems to just be getting nasty.
-Rhett

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

David did you read the negs, one appears legit no pay, one looks like a misunderstand that got paid and the third is from a unregistered seller that Todd has canceled checks for.

Talk about spinning situations, heck you guys even got B& L involved and the only thing they have in common with this thread is that they sell graded cards.

As for why I asked the question to you it is exampled in the response. I am glad to hear that you have left negs, many did not for fear of retaliation.

It amazes me how questions asked such as my response, can be taken as attacks. Do what you must and think what you must, that's everyone's right.

Lee

[Rob D.]

I agree with Rhett.

[nolemmings]

David, I see you remain on a witchhunt. Believe me, this bull@#$% reflects much worse on you than it does on me. Ask anyone on this board--anyone, if they have had ever had anything other than a good transaction with me. I've partnered with many here on auction lots, even with thousands on the table, without anything but good results and smooth communications. How many here have dealt with you?

Yes, six years ago a so-called buddy wanted me to bid on 1971 Mattel football set for his kid, and then "changed his mind". Not seller's problem, but when I contacted her some days later (I had bid before I left town and won while gone) she read me the riot act before I could even explain and said she would neg me. At that point, I did indeed tell her to kiss my ass and fire away. I did not respond to her neg because I did in fact refuse to pay, although I have no idea where her story came from.

Other than that, I have backed out of zero deals--ZERO.

This @#$% has gone on long enough with some of you turds. I've been dealing with friends and others on this board long before you ever thought of coming over here, and will continue to do so long after you're gone. I don't need to nor will I explain my mailing practices, my professional life or anything else beyond what I have already. You don't like it then you too can kiss my ass.

[nolemmings]

Rich, I do not know what an SGC Stengel would go for in that or any other grade, other than to know what I might pay for it. I've had problems logging into VCP for a few months (no complaints Bobby, just haven't spent the time trying to get a new temp password). Maybe someone else can pull that info for you. I know my bid was just under $1500, and I won it for far less.

[CMIZ5290]

My god, please someone end this thread. Todd, the bottom line is you bought a gai card without any money back guarantee. All other crap expressed in this thread is irrelevant.

[CMIZ5290]

I can't imagine an sgc graded card bringing more than 1500-2000, psa different story.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by BBSD

Two grading services disagree and its the sellers fault. I agree its tied 1-1. If the card has been altered since the purchase why should the seller take it back, that would be terrible for him or her.

BBSD,

Reading comprehension may nor be your strong suit. The card has NOT been altered since the purchase. It is exactly the same.

[CMIZ5290]

jim- i think bbsd meant if it had been cracked out, altered, and then sent to sgc

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

My god, please someone end this thread. Todd, the bottom line is you bought a gai card without any money back guarantee. All other crap expressed in this thread is irrelevant.

The way ebay/Paypal is currently structured, every purchase has a money back guarantee. It doesn't matter what the seller said. That's the way ebay is.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

jim- i think bbsd meant if it had been cracked out, altered, and then sent to sgc

I know what he meant. But from his comment, it's clear he either didn't read, or didn't understand this thread. The card is still in the original holder, and it says so in the thread.

[CMIZ5290]

Then why in the hell doesn't paypal intervene and resolve the situation?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Then why in the hell doesn't paypal intervene and resolve the situation?

They will. Once Todd has opened a case (I believe he has.) They will contact the seller and wait for his response. Then, regardless of what the seller thinks, they will tell Todd to return the card, with signature proof, and, when it's done. They will take the money from his account and credit Todd.

But Todd knows all that. He's a relatively intelligent guy. He started this thread to warn others of a seller with poor communication skills. Unfortunately, it has morphed into much more.

[BlueDevil89]

I hereby post an open offer to buy all GAI pre-war graded cards of HOF players at VCP (VCP for GAI graded cards only, that is). I'll be cracking the cases and submitting the cards to SGC. Any cards that grade lower than the original GAI rating, I'll be returning to you for a full refund. I assume that you stand behind the GAI grades that are labelled on the slabs, and that you have closely inspected the cards through the plastic and are in agreement with GAI concerning their grades, and you are, therefore, not misrepresenting the cards in any way. If the cards come back from SGC lower by 2 grades or more or turn out to be trimmed, etc, I expect you to also cover all of my shipping charges, grading fees, etc.

Sounds like a foolproof plan, doesn't it --- you (the Sellers) take all the risk, and I (the Buyer) reap all the reward from the cards that successfully cross over. Your refund guarantee is my insurance policy.

Any takers?

[CMIZ5290]

well said chris

[vintagetoppsguy]

Turds? Kiss your ass? Witch hunt? Wow! Yes, it is a witch hunt - a witch hunt you started to smear a reputable eBay seller. Todd, at this point it is GAI's word against SGC's. The burden of proof is on you. Prove to me and the rest of us "turds" that the card is trimmed. If you can prove it, I'll admit I was wrong. If you can't prove it, you need to shut the hell up and quit whining.

[CMIZ5290]

I also don't believe todd started this thread to warn other potential buyers. No offense, but i think it was to vent and it was out of anger that the card came back trimmed.

[bobbyw8469]

Sounds like a foolproof plan, doesn't it --- you (the Sellers) take all the risk, and I (the Buyer) reap all the reward from the cards that successfully cross over. Your refund guarantee is my insurance policy.

Chris, you hit the nail right on the head!! Ebay has a list of preapproved authenticators, but apparently they will contradict themselves and the 3rd party graders don't mean squat. This whole thing reeks with the problems that Ebay/TPGs fester.....

[CMIZ5290]

One question i have. If all this is true to protect the buyer about money back guarantees, then why in the hell is the market as crappy as it is on gai graded cards??? why not pay more money for them? what do you have to lose?

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Turds? Kiss your ass? Witch hunt? Wow! Yes, it is a witch hunt - a witch hunt you started to smear a reputable eBay seller. Todd, at this point it is GAI's word against SGC's. The burden of proof is on you. Prove to me and the rest of us "turds" that the card is trimmed. If you can prove it, I'll admit I was wrong. If you can't prove it, you need to shut the hell up and quit whining.

Well put, David!

[novakjr]

And now thanks to Todd, the seller will be stuck with a card that has been publicly branded as trimmed, which may or may not be true. So let's see what's been covered in this thread. Carters knowingly sells altered, yet professionally graded cards.. Carters shills up his bidders.. Carters doesn't communicate at all.. None of which seems to be the case, with the exception of maybe the communication thing. Am I forgetting anything? All because Todd knowingly took a risk on an item that clearly stated no refunds, and it didn't work out the way he'd hoped so he's throwing a hissy fit about it.

Also, most people apparently haven't had any issues with the seller's communication up until you.. I'd honestly love to see the original email you sent the seller that warranted him to ignore you.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

One question i have. If all this is true to protect the buyer about money back guarantees, then why in the hell is the market as crappy as it is on gai graded cards??? why not pay more money for them? what do you have to lose?

Exactly. If we all took Todd's approach to this whole GAI mess, we could all get rich, by just forcing a return whenever things don't work out in the cross-over.

[BBSD]

VB you a class act, go pick a fight with somebody who cares.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by novakjr

And now thanks to Todd, the seller will be stuck with a card that has been publicly branded as trimmed, which may or may not be true. So let's see what's been covered in this thread. Carters knowingly sells altered, yet professionally graded cards.. Carters shills up his bidders.. Carters doesn't communicate at all.. None of which seems to be the case, with the exception of maybe the communication thing. Am I forgetting anything? All because Todd knowingly took a risk on an item that clearly stated no refunds, and it didn't work out the way he'd hoped so he's throwing a hissy fit about it.

Also, most people apparently haven't had any issues with the seller's communication up until you.. I'd honestly love to see the original email you sent the seller that warranted him to ignore you.

What's your basis for saying that he is not shilling, in light of the statistics posted regarding another ID with well over 100 bids 97 percent of which were with the seller? EDIT TO CUT AND PASTE FROM POST 4:
Bidder Information
Bidder: s***n( 6 )
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1914 T222 Fatima GROVER ALEXANDER Graded PSA 5 EX
Bids on this item: 2
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 131
Items bid on: 92
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 97%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

[novakjr]

I have to remind myself to stop commenting on this board before I piss too many people off...It honestly isn't my intention, it just comes out that way....I won't be offering any apologies though.