VCBC #7, 1996, PSA & ASA Card Grading Svc's - Smoke Detectors Without Batteries

[glynparson]

Ah the kid grader line again. Every grader I know and I know most of them is north of 40. Most are around the same age as Desmond I believe. Why is it so hard to make points with the truth in this day and age and an article written by someone with an agenda 23 years ago means little today. You defending bvg and constantly ripping psa is a joke. It shows you are either ignorant, blind, or just so loyal because they are your friends. I think you are a nice guy Leon but I think you either spin your grading opinions or just flat out don’t know what your talking about. Go ahead rip
Into me I won’t be checking back in because I don’t feel like fighting with people
Over the internet. Anyone wants to discuss feel
Free to see me at the National or any other show i attend.

[bobbvc]

What's an ASA?

[hcv123]

Reality 1 - 3rd party grading is inconsistent at best (grossly incompetent at worst) - I have seen cards that imnsho were over graded, under graded and grossly mis-graded. For those well versed this is obvious and easy enough to see. (As has been raised above - there are many not so well versed)

Reality 2 - There are altered cards in 3rd party grading holders (we will likely never know which ones as anyone who owns one either is unaware or if aware, unwilling to take the financial hit of being honest). The grading companies ARE PART of the problem - when the very first card that PSA graded - the famed Gretzky-McNall Wagner is publicly known to have been altered (trimmed) and still sits in a PSA 8 holder - violating the very standard PSA claims to follow in grading - the actions (or lack thereof) speak way louder than words. While this is probably the most visible case, it is far from isolated and not a problem exclusive to any 1 grading company.

Reality 3 - The addition of 3rd party grading into the marketplace has vastly increased both the number of people "comfortable" buying cards as well as the prices for those cards. There is a whole market for people who - "buy the holder, not the card". They are certainly entitled to do so, but do so incurring the risks mentioned earlier in this thread.

My opinion - - While a VERY imperfect system for the reasons mentioned above and more, the net effect of 3rd party grading has been a benefit to hobby health as a whole. As in so many other markets - the more educated consumer is always in a position to make a more educated purchase decision. How educated one chooses to get is a personal decision.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Leon could you also post the companion article on card doctoring?

[Lorewalker]

In 1996 this article was probably cutting edge. I was not quite collecting then however with grading being fairly new, this was probably very controversial and a bold move by the author to print it.

In the short time I have been on this forum, I have read many posts that point out dozens more examples that are far more damaging and convincing than what is being pointed out in the article.

As great as grading is, it is also giving a license to card doctors to steal. It does not help that it appears a majority of collectors do not care or are not experienced enough to know what to look for once the card is blessed. These guys have to be laughing to themselves.

Not sure you can shock the consciences' of collectors enough that anything will ever change. Cards will continue to be worked and collectors will continually look the other way.

[felada]

VCBC was great when it was around. There were a few good articles about Hager. My favorite article was the one that Barry wrote about 19th century type cards. Best was his description of a few that fell into the category of you’ll never own one so why bother level of scarcity.

[buymycards]

It is amazing that the majority of this article still applies to grading in 2019. Nearly 23 years later and most of the points are still valid.

Rick

[rickyb80]

This article is from issue #7 and apparently it is almost impossible to find nowadays because, reportedly, PSA sent people throughout the country to buy them all up to avoid negative impact on their business.

Good luck trying to locate a copy today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

This article is from issue #7 and apparently it is almost impossible to find nowadays because, reportedly, PSA sent people throughout the country to buy them all up to avoid negative impact on their business.

Good luck trying to locate a copy today.

More likely they bought up the remaining inventory. How would you send people "throughout the country" to buy up single issues?

[oldjudge]

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

[Marckus99]

Slabber collectors,

Live by the sword, then die buying and getting burned with it.

[Leon]

Jay, unfortunately your rose colored glasses are getting in your way of good senses. Maybe it's your thumb in the picture again? Many would disagree with you, me included. I would say lhat SGC gets similar scrutiny and they do advertise (and grade vintage far better than PSA, imo). And I should mention that all grading companies, including SGC, make mistakes as humans are grading the cards. Personally, I think they made a mistake on the Yum Yum I have. But they are still better than PSA, to me.

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

[Throttlesteer]

Besides obvious errors (doctoring, counterfeits, etc), how can one even assess consistency anymore? Forget which TPG you're a fan of; The standards have changed over time. Reslabbing just confuses things even more. Yes buy the card not the holder. But no TPG can boast consistency.

[oldjudge]

Leon-everyone should use the grading service they like best. I don't grade that many cards, but when I grade it is for one of two reasons: 1. Market value in the holder, and 2. Participation in a registry set. PSA is the choice for me on both counts. I think they do a great job, but if not for the aforementioned points I would not grade at all. I don't need anyone to tell me if the cards I collect are genuine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter-Don’t let facts get in the way of a good story. PSA does a great job. I use them and am extremely happy with their service. Do they misgrade a card once in a while-sure. This is not perfection, but it is a whole lot better than what we had before them. If they were an advertiser they would get a lot more love.

Jay are you yet convinced it's more than "once in a while"? Do you still think "PSA does a great job"? If not, no worries, much more is coming.

[barrysloate]

Jay was at least correct that PSA cards provide more market value, and sad to say that six months from now, he may still be correct. Is anything really going to change?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Jay was at least correct that PSA cards provide more market value, and sad to say that six months from now, he may still be correct. Is anything really going to change?

If nothing else, the Kool-Aid won't taste quite so sugary.

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

More likely they bought up the remaining inventory. How would you send people "throughout the country" to buy up single issues?

From another page in this forum: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...06#post1952906

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

From another page in this forum: https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...06#post1952906

To clarify, I don't believe I was referring to this particular forum page when I mentioned those who were "biased for PSA and against Dennis". The exact location of the page I am referring to is still unknown. I just don't want anyone feeling as though I'm calling them out, because that's not how my mind operates. Actually, nevermind, that is precisely how my mind operates if the situation calls for it.

My write-up was directed at those who match the description of someone lacking in maturity, incapable of taking advice, with an exaggerated sense of their abilities, who reflexively responds to information they disagree with, and/or assumes, attacks others, uses disparaging or unhelpful language to distract or shift focus from themselves to another (ad hominem) or blindly defend the indefensible (e.g. - PSA). I'm not saying that every card graded from PSA is illegitimate, but rather I am pointing out the fact that the investigations have been undergone and the results are in. It's not even a contentious topic at this point. PSA makes the worst slabs, is the least consistent, and has the worst track record of any of the big 3 companies. The clearest pattern I have seen between those who feel the way I do and those who do not are:

1) Some advocates for PSA are unaware of the details of the companies history
2) Some advocates for PSA instantly reject negative information because it's a hard pill to swallow, depending on the degree of investment using their services
3) A lot of those advocating for PSA are dealers who use resale value as the sole factor in determining which is the better option
4) Many of those who are new to the hobby are introduced and indoctrinated into the culture of collecting by those preaching PSA as the standard.

Ignorance, unawareness, stubbornness, closed-mindedness, greed, corruption, or just sheer stupidity. I never assume that I know what the source is, but the pattern is definitely present. #1 applies to most beginners/novices but it could be as simple as someone just not taking the time to research it. Whether that's out of laziness on their part or simply that they do not care to know is an internal matter based on each person. #2 applies to a lot of people and I do my best to steer clear from this type because it is futile to believe they can be swayed with facts and the issue is actual caused by something deeper in these individuals. #3 has everything to do with money and that's not the point of collecting, but so long as people continue to overpay for PSA 10's vs. BGS 9.5's this type will continue to roam our hobby in large numbers. #4, like #1, applies to people entering the hobby who haven't taken the time to look deeply into it's history. This type usually hears the acronym "PSA" from another collector (usually a friend or someone they already relate to) so they follow along and join the bandwagon in such fashion. I'm sure there are many more types, but that's just my humble observation. Oh, there's also the question of "whose slabs are best?", but if you place a PSA slab next to a BGS slab it doesn't even seem like a subjective matter. The majority of those I have encountered agree that PSA slabs are thin, cheap, and ugly. Yes, I know, there are those who just love them, but I'd be willing to place a bet that BGS would win in a poll for modern and SGC would likely win in a poll for vintage slabs.

I have noticed that there is a higher percentage of experienced collectors who choose SGC over everything. In my opinion, SGC is a very good company. They are professional, consistent, and seem to hold the deepest appreciation for the history of the hobby. If I were a museum director I'd send everything to SGC. Having spoke with several of the people who work at SGC, at all levels, they seem to be the most ethical of all the big 3 companies. Not to mention that their grading is unbelievably strict. There was 1 time I did crack a 1971 Dusty Baker from an SGC 7 slab in an attempt to bump it to a 7 or an 8 and they returned it as "trimmed", but I do not consider that to be a problem with the company. The grader had a question in his mind as to whether the card was trimmed and he erred on the side of caution. I'd rather a grading company call a card trimmed when it's not than to assign it a numeric grade when it shouldn't because it bolsters the integrity of the process.

Anyways, are there any hobby veterans who are not dealers and would in no way be adversely impacted by the ultimate dissolution of PSA who are aware of everything that has transpired, yet would still be willing to consider PSA as the best of the big 3 companies? If so, how and why? Please help me understand what I am not seeing because I have worked pretty hard not to believe what I now feel to be the truth.

Cheers,
Ricky

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by rickyb80

To clarify, I don't believe I was referring to this particular forum page when I mentioned those who were "biased for PSA and against Dennis". The exact location of the page I am referring to is still unknown. I just don't want anyone feeling as though I'm calling them out, because that's not how my mind operates. Actually, nevermind, that is precisely how my mind operates if the situation calls for it.

My write-up was directed at those who match the description of someone lacking in maturity, incapable of taking advice, with an exaggerated sense of their abilities, who reflexively responds to information they disagree with, and/or assumes, attacks others, uses disparaging or unhelpful language to distract or shift focus from themselves to another (ad hominem) or blindly defend the indefensible (e.g. - PSA). I'm not saying that every card graded from PSA is illegitimate, but rather I am pointing out the fact that the investigations have been undergone and the results are in. It's not even a contentious topic at this point. PSA makes the worst slabs, is the least consistent, and has the worst track record of any of the big 3 companies. The clearest pattern I have seen between those who feel the way I do and those who do not are:

1) Some advocates for PSA are unaware of the details of the companies history
2) Some advocates for PSA instantly reject negative information because it's a hard pill to swallow, depending on the degree of investment using their services
3) A lot of those advocating for PSA are dealers who use resale value as the sole factor in determining which is the better option
4) Many of those who are new to the hobby are introduced and indoctrinated into the culture of collecting by those preaching PSA as the standard.

Ignorance, unawareness, stubbornness, closed-mindedness, greed, corruption, or just sheer stupidity. I never assume that I know what the source is, but the pattern is definitely present. #1 applies to most beginners/novices but it could be as simple as someone just not taking the time to research it. Whether that's out of laziness on their part or simply that they do not care to know is an internal matter based on each person. #2 applies to a lot of people and I do my best to steer clear from this type because it is futile to believe they can be swayed with facts and the issue is actual caused by something deeper in these individuals. #3 has everything to do with money and that's not the point of collecting, but so long as people continue to overpay for PSA 10's vs. BGS 9.5's this type will continue to roam our hobby in large numbers. #4, like #1, applies to people entering the hobby who haven't taken the time to look deeply into it's history. This type usually hears the acronym "PSA" from another collector (usually a friend or someone they already relate to) so they follow along and join the bandwagon in such fashion. I'm sure there are many more types, but that's just my humble observation. Oh, there's also the question of "whose slabs are best?", but if you place a PSA slab next to a BGS slab it doesn't even seem like a subjective matter. The majority of those I have encountered agree that PSA slabs are thin, cheap, and ugly. Yes, I know, there are those who just love them, but I'd be willing to place a bet that BGS would win in a poll for modern and SGC would likely win in a poll for vintage slabs.

I have noticed that there is a higher percentage of experienced collectors who choose SGC over everything. In my opinion, SGC is a very good company. They are professional, consistent, and seem to hold the deepest appreciation for the history of the hobby. If I were a museum director I'd send everything to SGC. Having spoke with several of the people who work at SGC, at all levels, they seem to be the most ethical of all the big 3 companies. Not to mention that their grading is unbelievably strict. There was 1 time I did crack a 1971 Dusty Baker from an SGC 7 slab in an attempt to bump it to a 7 or an 8 and they returned it as "trimmed", but I do not consider that to be a problem with the company. The grader had a question in his mind as to whether the card was trimmed and he erred on the side of caution. I'd rather a grading company call a card trimmed when it's not than to assign it a numeric grade when it shouldn't because it bolsters the integrity of the process.

Anyways, are there any hobby veterans who are not dealers and would in no way be adversely impacted by the ultimate dissolution of PSA who are aware of everything that has transpired, yet would still be willing to consider PSA as the best of the big 3 companies? If so, how and why? Please help me understand what I am not seeing because I have worked pretty hard not to believe what I now feel to be the truth.

Cheers,
Ricky

Strait up bottom line is they continue to submit to PSA Because The Dealers and Auction Houses Believe PSA always brings them the most money for their vintage cards. Sure SGC is way more accurate and fair but that doesn’t matter it’s all about the most amount of money they can get.

PSA is Teflon Amazing Business Model Based on Opinions Pumped By Brilliance in Marketing Pop and Registry.....It’s Gold Jerry Gold.....

[rickyb80]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Strait up bottom line is they continue to submit to PSA Because The Dealers and Auction Houses Believe PSA always brings them the most money for their vintage cards. Sure SGC is way more accurate and fair but that doesn’t matter it’s all about the most amount of money they can get.

PSA is Teflon Amazing Business Model Based on Opinions Pumped By Brilliance in Marketing Pop and Registry.....It’s Gold Jerry Gold.....

I agree with you. How can we solve this?