Can corruption kill this beloved hobby?

[ullmandds]

With all this talk about corrupt grading companies...deviants altering cards to get bumps...then reselling through clearing houses like Probstein at a dramatic increase in price...altered scans in some of the most "reputable" major auction houses we know?

I Present my t216 bb miller...1st scan is goodwins(not a crease is visible)...2nd is mine when I received the card(multiple creases evident):


This hobby has been full of crooks since I started collecting...and I suppose none of this is new...but these days things seem out of control.

The Babe Ruth Fro Joys values have virtually been destroyed due to the plethora of counterfeits out there...is it possible all of this corruption can destroy this hobby?

Has any other hobby been destroyed by corruption?

Is this just "the way it has become"...caveat emptor reigns supreme?

[pepis]

At this point Peter, corruption is so big in every facet of the hobby that old timers are being forced to make the choice to join in if you can't beat them sort
of speak which is the reason why, to answer your question no it seems like
corruption is making the hobby bigger and bigger and true knowledge keeps
getting put aside in favor of the mighty buck

[prestigecollectibles]

My scans on Ebay or my auction site are always large. I try to make the scans as close to reality or worse so the customer is never surprised and always satisfied. It only makes good business sense.

[drcy]

Forgers and scammers pray on the ignorance and greed of collectors. For every other scam, there is an uneducated buyer who thinks he's getting a steal. The buyer is a victim, but that doesn't mean he's entirely innocent.

[steve B]

I don't think it will wreck everything.

For one, it's always been there. The methods and money have changed, but the same stuff goes on. Cards were cleaned and trimmed before TPG came along, and that was one of the big selling points of TPG.

Cards were commonly overgraded as well. Especially when there was a lot of mailorder without scans or TPG. How many times did we hear "it's excellent for its age" back in the old days? Or see some dealers who would call a card with rounded corners and a big crease VG? Or one with a bent corner NM?

Ohter hobbies have similar problems.

With stamps there was an expertizing company that got caught passing the stuff sent in by certain dealers with little or no actual examination. And outright fakes, and alterations have been done since nearly the very beginning. (As well as wealthy speculators convincing countries with the most rudimentary postal services to issue large series that the specualtor would sell for them. Or ordering legitimately some really odd combinations of stamped envelopes. )

Old racing bikes are almost always subject to crazy claims of being ridden by certain riders, when they're the wrong size, or the entirely wrong maker. Even a simple "team bike" attributed to no rider in particular is occasionally faked.

Cars have been discovered that have very dubious calims to being original OR even what they are claimed to be. I once had an opportunity to buy a Hemi Charger. The price was very low. When I checked into it, what I found was that I'd recieve the VIN and data plates in an envelope. For a bit extra I'd get the frame parts that stiffened the car body to take the extra horsepower. The rest was up to me. (Buy a Charger and weld in the frame bits then find the rest of the parts)

All three of those hobbies are doing just fine. The exertizing companies got it together, the information is available to ID a fake bike, and the info about spotting cars that are just "wrong" is also out there.

Do fakes and alterations still happen? Yes. Are stamps, Bikes and cars still misrepresented? Yes. (It's the same for pretty much any hobby) Have those hobbies been ruined? Nope.

Steve B

[drcy]

If we're really serious about cleaning up this problem, we should bring back flogging.

[the-illini]

I get that scanner settings, etc can make a card look different that its actual appearance. That said, if I am selling something and my scan hides a flaw and I notice it, I re-scan the card.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by the-illini

I get that scanner settings, etc can make a card look different that its actual appearance. That said, if I am selling something and my scan hides a flaw and I notice it, I re-scan the card.

Yup...

[rainier2004]

Peter, you just pegged my biggest fear in the hobby...I collect cards to feel like a kid, not to worry about being screwed.

I am amazed at the standards in this industry, and the fact that most of us don't hold others accountable. AH w/ crappy scans, but we keep bidding. AH employees being charged and convicted w/ real felonies, but we ignore it. TPGs failing to increase security standards, but PSA had the longest line at the National. Whatever happened to a pack of cards costing 50 cents? This hobby doesn't need kids, right? I love this hobby, I wish I knew a better way to protect it.

[Fred]

Pete,

I'm not sure if scans provided from auction houses are modified. Sometimes the scanner default settings are the result of "not so good" scans. However, I've seen it where scans have been manipulated. For example, auction houses would scan OJs so that the images were a bit darker than they truly were. In that case you know someone was screwing around with the contrast and brightness settings after you received a card or lot of cards that were not as dark as the pictures provided.

One thing I would expect is that an accurate description of the card is posted if the scan did not show certain defects.

As far as corruptness killing this hobby goes, just think about the whole basis of TPG grading and the ONE card that started the revolution. To me that places the whole validity of grading on shakey ground. Not only that, you know a lot of cards have been passed as unaltered. I wouldn't think that PSA, SGC or Beckett would pass off a reprint on purpose but you can't tell me that PSA didn't pass off the Wagner and many of the HALL collection of T206 cards as unaltered.

As long as people love this stuff I think it will be hard to kill the hobby. Me for instance, I'd love to see a mass exodus from this hobby so that I could buy the stuff that I love that much cheaper. As long as suckers like me exist, there will be a market for old dead guys depicted on cardboard.

[HRBAKER]

Can corruption kill this beloved hobby?

In a word, no.
Too many willing accomplices, also known as buyers.

[toppcat]

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

[Leon]

I don't think corruption will kill the hobby. If we are all diligent we can significantly decrease it in our sphere, by keeping individuals and companies accountable for their actions. Thank God for the FBI, Postal Inspectors, Secret Service and other law enforcement who take an interest in our hobby. And thanks to all collectors who try to rat out the bad guys, wherever they may be.

[martindl]

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't think corruption will kill the hobby. If we are all diligent we can significantly decrease it in our sphere, by keeping individuals and companies accountable for their actions. Thank God for the FBI, Postal Inspectors, Secret Service and other law enforcement who take an interest in our hobby. And thanks to all collectors who try to rat out the bad guys, wherever they may be.

While I agree with the sentiment Leon, the truth is there's very much a "look the other way" mentality that pervades this hobby. If you had say a jewelry store in your local area, one run by a known cheater so accused based on multiple proven instances of past wrong doing, who consistently offers up gold that is really brass, would the people in your area continue to flock there? No they wouldn't. They'd avoid the place like the plague.

Not so in this hobby. Regardless of past and present indisgressions, people keep going back. Like Barry said, it's an addiction and like most addictions, it defies logical actions.

Martin Dalziel

[HRBAKER]

We get what we put up with.
And we've proven to be a resourceful bunch.

[barrysloate]

Corruption and fraud aren't going to help the hobby, and there will certainly be some attrition due to it. But the hobby will somehow manage to survive, perhaps a little smaller but still with a pulse. That said, it's disgusting some of the things that go on. If collectors weren't so addicted many would walk away, but the lure of stuff is too great.

[drcy]

If eBay has taught us anything, it's that there are a lot of painfully stupid people in this world.

[67_Palmer]

Originally Posted by toppcat

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

This

[drcy]

From the Canadian backwoods comedy show The Red Green Show, when resident antique store owner Dalton Humphrey was asked if he'd sell a dangerously defective old car to a family member: "Each and every one of my family and friends is an integral and cherished part of my life, but a buck's a buck."

Dalton said he used to own a junk store but wasn't making enough money so changed it into an antiques store. When asked how he did that, he said he changed the sign out front.

As has often been said, you can find all of humanity in Shakespeare and The Red Green Show.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by toppcat

It's not just the hobby, it's everywhere.

+1

At least the hobby is no where near as corrupt as D.C. is.

Sincerely, Clayton

[frankbmd]

In front of a card shop near me

[robw]

Having taken a near 20 year break from the hobby/industry, and now back for the past year, here's my 2 cents.

1) Corruption will not kill this, our culture will/does. Cards are not looked at like they were in the 50's, 60's and prior. Baseball was life back then, and cards a way to live vicariously through said life. It wasn't about condition, but about completing sets, getting your favorite player/team. That is long gone...now it's about winning the lottery with chase cards. Not to mention, there are many, many more hobbies and interests to partake in today than in prior times.

2) Once something is labeled as "collectible," it typically isn't-that's the new card market today

3) TPG's are a must, in my opinion. I am less a conspiracy theorist than most and do think they are as unbiased as it is going to get. I got out of the business originally just as the idea of TPG's were just starting to be mentioned. Now, I probably won't buy a card online that hasn't gone through a TPG. I know too many people that have been burned by ungraded singles hoping to grade them, only to find they have been altered. Fortunately for some, unfortunately for most newcomers, it's going to cost an arm and a leg to start buying high-graded older cards...that price barrier knocks many people out of the "industry."

4) People in the industry-even the most legitimate dealers share the blame in my opinion. Ever look how many auctions are on eBay? My searches show about 10% of all listings. Everything else is "Buy It Now." Even some of the auction prices start ABOVE book value. I've been to larger trade shows recently, as well. There's no excitement. Cards I thought were rare 20 years ago are stacked in graded cases as high as the ceiling-and its just the same show, time after time. The dealers don't even move around-same table arrangement, etc.

It's just like golf, though-it only takes a single great shot to keep you coming back....i'll keep searching for my diamonds in the rough.

Rob