Ebay Prewar Deluge of BIN's

[Yoda]

I have watched for several years the Ebay BIN's for Dean's Cards, never buying things on offer but marveling at the BIN's prices on admittedly high grade cards, still wondering if he was serious about really selling these beauties, or was it show and tell time. If anybody is interested, he has unleashed an avalanche of low grade cards on Ebay all ending today - multi-sport, some graded, most not. My only comment would be that if this is a business model paradigm shift strategy, he needs to check the pricing element again.

[36GoudeyMan]

The observation that one particular dealer's BIN prices are out of line is really true for so many dealers. I look at VCP and Sold auction listings on eBay, and wonder where the justification can be found for listings at many multiples of market value. Several dealers I have contacted have made known to me that they were willing to wheel and deal despite the listing price, which is refreshing.

Is there some strategic advantage to being on the top of the list when you sort your eBay listings by price? Or are these just invitations to negotiate, for direct sales or through BIN/OBOs? Whatever, I think many dealers list prices that are way too high but will often get real when a real buyer shows up...

[Snapolit1]

Having gone through the exercise recently of trying to move some nice cards on Ebay, I have to say pricing is not as easy as it looks. I always do BIN but accept best offers. I've had a number of times where I'm selling a card clearly worth $500 and some dude comes in with an offer at $190. Just as a lot of sellers can appear delusional, I think a lot of "buyers" out there are not looking for a fair deal, but to take advantage of an unknowing seller so they can get a $500 card for $200 and list it again 5 minutes later for $750.

[mybuddyinc]

Yup, a "fun" time today scrolling through 6-7 pages of Dean's T206s.

What a waste of time, feel bad for anyone who had a auction squeezed somewhere in that mess ................

[buymycards]

Now we also get to scroll through COMC's overpriced BIN's when we do an eBay search. $30 cards listed for $160 and the seller is not taking offers.

[T206Collector]

I'm pretty sure the partial T206 sets Dean is selling are just jumbled versions of each other -- if you buy two you wind up getting the same glowing yellow Waddell throwing. My favorite thing about this listing is actually how Shoeless Joe Jackson finally gets his due in the T206 set:

"The T206 baseball card set consists of 524 cards different cards. The T206 set is the most popular set issued prior to World War I and features the great players of the day. Included in the T206 set is:Ty Cobb, Joe Jackson, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Tris Speaker, Zach Wheat and many more."

No wonder the BIN is $118,270! I wonder if he'd take $118,000 even...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...wAAOSwImRYEgHW

[BobC]

The simple thing to do is when you set your search parameters is to ask to look at auction listings only. That way all the BINs don't clog up your viewing. It is amazing to me how small a percentage of pre-war cards on Ebay are still sold via auction as opposed to BINs.

Yes, I know I may be missing out on items that also state OBO but, my experience is that most don't allow for reasonable offers and quickly turn them down or counter by knocking off maybe a nominal amount through a counter-offer and hoping you'll take it. Also, on those odd occasions I do look through the BINs and OBOs for particular items, when I do make an OBO offer, I make what I feel is a reasonable offer based on my comfort level, experience, tastes and pocketbook. I don't give a crap about VCP or any other pricing services and don't care what the supposed "current market" looks like.

Am I often looking to buy at a decent price, yes. But I don't buy to resell or flip though and probably haven't sold anything in at least 10-15 years. I'm strictly a collector and am insulted when a seller insinuates I'm trying to rip them off or just looking to make a buck off of them. To me this is strictly a hobby. And as is human nature, most sellers think what they have is worth more than it really is, or that at least if someone supposedly just sold a similar item off Ebay for a new all-time high price, that is exactly what their item should now sell for, or even more.

To me, the idea that the "all boats rise with the tide" mentality that almost all dealers seem to rely on as an excuse to bump up prices of lower end cards when the high-end versions of those cards start to jump in prices is asinine. And that includes 1952 Topps Mantle cards. I'm sorry but a '52 Mantle with a hole punched in it still selling for a 5+ figure amount to me is just ridiculous. It isn't like you can't find a Mantle out there for sale so it isn't the rarity. The idiots who in my mind pay these ridiculous prices aren't true collectors, they're just speculators who are counting on doubling, tripling, quadrupling, whatever with their money by buying and holding these cards till some new astronomical price jump happens again in what they hope for them is the near future. Just ask all those people that were hoarding rookie cards back on the 1980's, expecting to hold them a few years and then cash in and sell them for enough money to retire on how that all worked out?

Also, with all the talk and debate that occasionally occurs on this site about how there is shill bidding and attempts at price manipulation across the hobby, that just serves to show me that pricing services like VCP aren't necessarily going to be that accurate, or even reasonable in some/many cases. So again, why tell me I don't know what I'm talking about when quoting prices and spewing out figures from VCP or Beckett. I seem to remember these are referred to as "guides" not gospel!!!! Personally, I don't care what a dealer or anyone else paid for a card. It is not my obligation and responsibility to insure that you make a profit on selling it to me or anyone else for that matter.

Sorry for the rant but, this one touches a nerve with me, I can't stand all the ridiculous BINs either and just hate the idea that dealers will buy up these cards we collect and then hold them hostage till we give them the price they want, whether it is reasonable or not. And if as a dealer you feel you're getting low OBO offers, then don't offer the option. But if you still decide to, don't complain about getting them, instead you should be happy to be getting any offers at all. By the way, isn't there a way on Ebay you can set a low limit on OBO offers so if it doesn't meet your expectations it just automatically declines the OBO offer and you don't have to deal with it? if so, then do that and as a dealer quit complaining about low ball offers. Or better yet, why not just sell your item on Ebay via a regular auction and set the reserve/opening price at the minimum you'll take? That way you don't have to deal with anything you think is a low ball offer at all. Oh wait, Ebay charges extra for things like that and you can't make as much money? Go back to my comment where I said it isn't my responsibility to insure a dealer makes a living from selling cards.

Whatever happened to the old adage, "the customer is always right"? In this technologically advanced age of internet sales and loss of personal interaction, we've really lost a lot, especially when you think that this is supposed to be a hobby for fun, not necessarily profit. In the end though, I don't rip on any dealer and call them names if they won't sell me a card for what I believe is a fair price. I'll just say "thanks but, no thanks", and smile and walk away. Have good luck and fun collecting guys (and gals), I think there are still more of us true collectors out there than you can imagine.

BobC

[Snapolit1]

If you don't care what VCP says recent sales have been, I wouldn't expect you'd do particularly well with BINs. You may think the market is stupid and irrational and just the product of a bunch of greedy idiots but it is what it is. I'd love to walk into the best steak restaurant in New York or Dallas and tell them I think their steak is only fairly worth $9, but I'm not sure that discussion will go very far either.
I don't disagree that sometimes you can often get a better price at auction that with BINs.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

If you don't care what VCP says recent sales have been, I wouldn't expect you'd do particularly well with BINs. You may think the market is stupid and irrational and just the product of a bunch of greedy idiots but it is what it is. I'd love to walk into the best steak restaurant in New York or Dallas and tell them I think their steak is only fairly worth $9, but I'm not sure that discussion will go very far either.
I don't disagree that sometimes you can often get a better price at auction that with BINs.

Steve,

First off, I didn't say all prices are stupid or irrational. I made a specific reference to the '52 Mantles because I find that entire issue with the recent blow-up in prices of highly graded cards from the 50s, 60s and 70s to just astound me. Let's face it, as rare and tough as '52 Topps high numbers are, it seems if you want to get one, you can find them. I was mostly making a reference to the fact that dealers will take the ridiculous prices of these PSA 9 and 10 cards that have in recent months gone through the roof, and use those as a reference point in setting prices on lower grade cards. I can't say for a fact that they are doing it in all cases but, I'm sure there's a decent percentage that look at that higher grade price jump and use that to try and get more for their own cards they're selling. Just like there are then people that speculate on these same cards and think that since they've risen in price so dramatically in such a short period of time that they'll jump on the bandwagon and look to make a fast buck by flipping those same cards a few months/years later for a profit. As a collector only, I'm not buying to flip the card for a quick profit, to finance other purchases or make a fast buck for myself. So for to me to go in on this spiraling upward pricing boom and buy cards now is idiotic. And I'm fearful for those that are doing so that they are going to at some point get stuck with the proverbial "hot potato" should the market cool down and correct itself while they're still holding a formerly high-priced card. That was why I also made reference to the people who were accumulating 1980's rookie cards, thinking that in 10-20-30 years they'd jump in prices like the 1950's rookies had been doing, and become rich and retire. The dealers and people selling those rookie cards back then were taking advantage of the greed and such of those people by selling them as many cards as they could. It was all speculative and because no one thought about how many cards were actually being produced, they didn't realize there were so many more than people who would actually want them that they would be virtually worthless after all those years.

It really isn't much different than the people who sell modern cards by the process they call "Breaking" nowadays. The underlying concepts are basically greed and gambling. The current card manufacturers try to produce what I think of as manufactured rarities and get modern card buyers to believe they are worth a ton of money. So the "Breakers" can sell spots to open up these cases of new cards so the buyers can hopefully get lucky and hit on one of the supposed rare cards which they then normally turn around and sell right away. The part that gets me is, who is paying hundreds/thousands of dollars for these supposedly rare cards that keep fueling these people to keep buying the new products? With all the new product that keeps coming out every couple of weeks, with each one seemingly having more 1 of 1 cards, in my mind I can't fathom how they continue to hold any real value. By that I mean, there is a product that comes out with a 1 of 1 card of Mike Trout this week from Topps. Then in two weeks Panini comes out with a new issue that has a different Mike Trout 1 of 1 card. Then a week later a different Topps issue comes out with yet another 1 of 1 Mike Trout card. And so on ad nauseum. Until after a while there are literally hundreds of different Mike Trout 1 of 1 cards out there. At that point I feel, they have extremely watered down the value of all the 1 of 1 Trout cards that were issued. To me, this is akin to when they first started putting game used cards in packs. At first, they were a novelty and there were very few out there so players like Jeter and McGwire would go for big bucks. But after they became popular, every card manufacturer started doing the same thing and issued game used cards, year after year, until now there were literally hundreds of different Jeter and McGwire game used cards on the market. Now when you go to shows you'll see dealers with boxes of those old game used cards that they can't even give away. Same thing with the autographed modern cards.

So what is so special about these modern manufactured rarities they're selling now? I've also heard speculation and rumors that the card companies themselves may be going out and purchasing back some of these cards they issued, at ridiculously high prices, or at least having representatives do it for them. This creates an air that these manufactured rarities have significant value, and keeps fueling the people that want to gamble to get them in the first place. How is that much different than the shilling accusations, and convictions, that we talk about here on Net54? In the end, it seems to me that it is just another example of how we can't really count on price guides or services to really be able to gauge the true market and give us accurate pricing. So I stick to my guns and offer what "I" think is fair.

And don't think what I'm talking about is only applicable to these modern collectors. We've even had a few of these "vintage breaks" done/advertised through Net54. Tell me that the only reason someone isn't willing to shell out say $20-$30 for a spot in say a 1963 Topps set being broken up and sold is that they aren't hoping to win one of the Mantle cards or maybe the Rose rookie. Of course it is, it's all gambling and getting a fast something for almost nothing.

Now getting back to your commentary, comparing going into a restaurant to buy a steak with bidding on a baseball card is definitely not an apples to apples comparison. Buying a steak, a gallon of gas, or a loaf of bread, is something that everyone does, and pretty much has to do to eat, live, etc. Those are more of what I think of as purchases of commodities, that everyone out there is looking to buy and acquire. The market for what we collect, pre-war baseball cards, is extremely thin when you put it into the perspective of the population as a whole. And the truth be told, no one really needs an old pre-war baseball card for anything other than the esthetic or intrinsic value that the buyer him/herself places on it.

Now you may argue that going to a great steakhouse is going to command a much higher price than grabbing a burger at Mickey-D's, and I wholeheartedly agree. But, a steak is a steak. I can go to a top butcher and without to much exception, buy the same cuts of meat that even the best steakhouses sell and just make it myself. What these top steakhouses are really selling, and getting the big bucks for, is the experience and ambiance a diner receives at their restaurant as opposed to other places. The training and quality of the chef, how the steak is prepared, what it comes with, the fact that you don't have to take the time to do the cooking and the dishes afterwards, and so on and so forth. I've been to nice steakhouses, like Gibson's in Chicago, and am happy to pay what they want for their steak, because of the experience, ambiance, service, whatever you want to call it. I've also grabbed a burger at Mickey-D's because I was hungry right then, and it was cheap, fast and accessible. Exactly what added ambiance or experience are you getting by buying a card off Ebay on a BIN item????

So if you think I don't do well with BINs, that may be the case but, only for those dealers who somehow think in their pricing that because you're buying from them, you should be happy to pay their ridiculous high prices. To use the example you used, I just don't see how purchasing a card via BIN on Ebay from someone like Dean's, 707 or COMC is giving me any added experience or ambiance like going to a fine steakhouse. Fact is, it doesn't. So why would I want to drink their kool-aid and pay their price. That being said, I still do occasionally buy some things off Ebay with a reasonable BIN or get an item I made what I feel is a reasonable OBO offer on.

Remember, buyers/collectors of pre-war cards are an extremely thin market when compared to the number of people who will go out to buy a steak. As such, it should really be a Buyer's market for Pre-War cards and not dictated so much by dealer's who want you to think things are as valuable as they would have you believe them to be. I just stick to my guns and offer what I think is reasonable and fair. If someone doesn't want to take it, that is fine with me. Just afford me the same courtesy by accepting that I at least made an offer and simply saying no thank you, with no added histrionics or crap.

As I already said, it is not my fault if someone paid more for something than I feel it is really worth. I am not obligated to pay them enough so they can profit on it. On the off chance I ever really did sell something, I'd mostly try to just do a trade or simply look to get back about what I had into it. I don't plan on retiring on my collection and wish the investors/speculators would get out of the game so I could get more of the items I'd like to get at what I feel are reasonable prices. High BINs are to me, a very direct link to this thinking that dealers are entitled to a profit. It is a hobby to me, not something I need and have to have to live. If prices get too high, and my budget doesn't allow it, I simply cease buying. And that is to the detriment of dealers, not me. I collect enough oddball and varied items that I can pretty much always find something within my budget to satisfy and scratch my collecting itch.

You're right though, the market is what it is and by myself, I certainly can't, and don't expect, to change it. It did strike a nerve with me though when the OP was referring to high prices dealers charge on BINs and I felt like putting in my two cents worth on the topic (Even though with all this posting it seems more like a buck and a half at least.) Have fun collecting though is my motto, and also my wish for everyone else. Have a good one.

BobC

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Now we also get to scroll through COMC's overpriced BIN's when we do an eBay search. $30 cards listed for $160 and the seller is not taking offers.

The vast majority of COMC sellers do take offers, but only at the www.comc.com website. COMC hasn't figured out how to enable offers through the eBay system yet. I consider offers of up to 50% off any of the cards on my account (mjohnatgt or eBay consignor ID 0n8), so if you see any cards of mine you like, just go to www.comc.com and make an offer there.

[glynparson]

You guys act like scrolling by a listing is so time consuming its funny. You want what card you want when you want it for the lowest price its ever sold for. I think its hysterical people should go through all the work to find, list, and make it nice and easy for you but god forbid they want to make a couple dollars. It has gotten to the point of being pathetic with some of you. The sense of entitlement of some collectors is astounding. like it or not some cards sell for good money and just because you call yourself a collector and not an investor does not mean you deserve the card more than anyone else. What did you guys do when you had to go to shows or scrounge through SCD to find cards. It is so much easier than it ever was to find items, yet many still do nothing but complain, and to me it is usually the ones that claim it is just a hobby for them.

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by glynparson

You guys act like scrolling by a listing is so time consuming its funny. You want what card you want when you want it for the lowest price its ever sold for. I think its hysterical people should go through all the work to find, list, and make it nice and easy for you but god forbid they want to make a couple dollars. It has gotten to the point of being pathetic with some of you. The sense of entitlement of some collectors is astounding. like it or not some cards sell for good money and just because you call yourself a collector and not an investor does not mean you deserve the card more than anyone else. What did you guys do when you had to go to shows or scrounge through SCD to find cards. It is so much easier than it ever was to find items, yet many still do nothing but complain, and to me it is usually the ones that claim it is just a hobby for them.

With all due respect, this is a two way street. Its laughable when dealers/sellers whine about low ball offers, especially considering its usually the pot calling the kettle black. Do dealers not BUY their material as cheap as they can get it?? Do they not constantly low-ball people to get material?? If the average dealer walks into a flea market or antique store and finds cards say worth $300.00 for a steal, does he inform the seller that a fair price to pay would be $150.00? Of course not! He buys them as CHEAP AS HE CAN. Dealers, just like COLLECTORS, try to get the card(s) as cheap as they can. What part of this is rocket science? I have no problem with any dealer/seller trying to get the most for their items, just like I understand collectors are trying to do the same, and get the item as cheap as possible. So c'mon, if you've done the "momentous" task of listing cards on eBay, please don't be a hypocrite.
Thats my two cents.

Brent

[bobbyw8469]

With the competition for cards so fierce, I doubt many dealers are "stealing" items as you claim. Just an observation.

[Snapolit1]

To me, selling a card through BIN is a negotiation like a lot of other things, at least where offers are accepted. I've settled legal matters where one side demanded 15 million dollars right out of the box and the other side offered $5,000. Seller wants the most they can get and the buyer wants to pay as little as it can. That's economics. Regardless of where the numbers start though, it's usually pretty easy to determine if both sides have an interest in actually consummating a deal. If the last few sales of a card was $1000, it's not particularly useful to offer $150 and then to make a second offer at $160, or to list it for $2900 and refuse to take reasonable offers. A lot of listings to me don't look like the seller really wants to sell, but is throwing a line out there to make a killing with an uninformed buyer.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

To me, selling a card through BIN is a negotiation like a lot of other things, at least where offers are accepted. I've settled legal matters where one side demanded 15 million dollars right out of the box and the other side offered $5,000. Seller wants the most they can get and the buyer wants to pay as little as it can. That's economics. Regardless of where the numbers start though, it's usually pretty easy to determine if both sides have an interest in actually consummating a deal. If the last few sales of a card was $1000, it's not particularly useful to offer $150 and then to make a second offer at $160, or to list it for $2900 and refuse to take reasonable offers. A lot of listings to me don't look like the seller really wants to sell, but is throwing a line out there to make a killing with an uninformed buyer.

Steve,

I concur with you 100% on that sentiment.

BobC

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

With all due respect, this is a two way street. Its laughable when dealers/sellers whine about low ball offers, especially considering its usually the pot calling the kettle black. Do dealers not BUY their material as cheap as they can get it?? Do they not constantly low-ball people to get material??
Brent

As with most commodities, the sports card dealers I know don't need to low-ball, they buy in bulk as this provides them a cheaper price per card rather than wasting their time haggling prices on a few singles here and there. As a collector, I expect to pay more for a "single" card than I would if I bought the same card as a part of a large grouping of 5000 vintage cards. While some dealers do flip singles profitably, most dealers focus their attention on buying these larger groupings of cards with a lower price point per card as they realize that breaking up these larger groups and offering them to collectors as singles, small lots, etc. is where their profit will come from.

If collectors were to become more willing/able to buy these larger dealer type lots, than yes, I suspect that card dealers would have to become better hagglers like a very small percent of collectors are due to the increased demand/prices. IMO, it is not likely many collectors are willing/able to tie up their money and time investing in these dealer type lots.



Some years back, I sold off a run of near complete Topps sets from 53-75 (all of my duplicates) to a nationally known dealer. He spent 8 hours going through these cards. We spent the next 2-3 minutes negotiating the sell price/payment terms and agreed on a price we were both very happy with....he did not have to haggle with the price because it was a fair price for buying this large of a run of cards and he knew there was a slew of profit to be made by selling these cards as singles.

Dealers do not need to haggle if they buy in bulk

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

A lot of listings to me don't look like the seller really wants to sell, but is throwing a line out there to make a killing with an uninformed buyer.

Exactly, except they occasionally get a hit which perpetuates the cycle. I saw a dealer buy a card -- in the same group I bought an almost identical card in the same auction -- and then turn around and list it on eBay at 3x the sale price. I offered to sell him mine for double the price. He declined and said if he had wanted the card he would have just beat me in the auction for it. This was a year ago and his 3x price is still available on eBay if anyone wants in on that "deal" (as is my 2x price)!

[Leon]

I think Shoeless would be worth far more than 118k by himself. I think it's a swell deal.....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...gHW&rmvSB=true

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I'm pretty sure the partial T206 sets Dean is selling are just jumbled versions of each other -- if you buy two you wind up getting the same glowing yellow Waddell throwing. My favorite thing about this listing is actually how Shoeless Joe Jackson finally gets his due in the T206 set:

"The T206 baseball card set consists of 524 cards different cards. The T206 set is the most popular set issued prior to World War I and features the great players of the day. Included in the T206 set is:Ty Cobb, Joe Jackson, Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Tris Speaker, Zach Wheat and many more."

No wonder the BIN is $118,270! I wonder if he'd take $118,000 even...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-11-T206...wAAOSwImRYEgHW

[irv]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Now we also get to scroll through COMC's overpriced BIN's when we do an eBay search. $30 cards listed for $160 and the seller is not taking offers.

I just purchased my first card through Comc. Purchased it from a member here, who, imo, sold it at a great price!

1952 Topps #88 - Bob Feller [Good to VG‑EX] (I'd give it a 3 or 4?)

I did a fair bit of searching on there and some listings are off side for sure, but some aren't actually that bad depending on what you are looking for?

I recently just clicked "Bins" only on E-Bay looking for 52 Topps cards and I didn't see one that was priced decently, however.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by irv

I just purchased my first card through Comc. Purchased it from a member here, who, imo, sold it at a great price!

1952 Topps #88 - Bob Feller [Good to VG‑EX] (I'd give it a 3 or 4?)

I did a fair bit of searching on there and some listings are off side for sure, but some aren't actually that bad depending on what you are looking for?

I recently just clicked "Bins" only on E-Bay looking for 52 Topps cards and I didn't see one that was priced decently, however.

Congrats on the Feller. COMC is awesome you will like it. The last few months there has been a huge increase in "museum cards" on there. My favorite part is I can stockpile cards and once every couple months have them all sent to me for under $5. The savings on shipping alone if you can stockpile adds up real quick.

[irv]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Congrats on the Feller. COMC is awesome you will like it. The last few months there has been a huge increase in "museum cards" on there. My favorite part is I can stockpile cards and once every couple months have them all sent to me for under $5. The savings on shipping alone if you can stockpile adds up real quick.

Thanks

I wasn't aware of that, but that is good to know.

I found shipping very reasonable. I checked before I purchased the Feller which made my decision that much easier.