T206 JACK DUNN....Babe Ruth's 1st manager

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Posted By: T206Collector

...it's what you want it to be.

My vote is the artist designed it to be ambiguous.

And to debate it just gives credence to that intent.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Visit http://www.t206collector.com for signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

PAUL S....and....ALI L......and anyone else......here it is......read it......it's FREE of CHARGE !


These six HORIZONTAL cards were printed in the 1st Series of T206 set and issued in 1909/1910




Two are classified as "150-only" Subjects....that means they are ONLY found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150,
Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU. They are......

PATTEE
PELTY

The following 3 HORIZONTAL cards are classified as 150/350 Subjects....that is they are found with Piedmont 150,
or 350, Sweet Cap 150 or 350, Sovereign 150 or 350 and Brown HINDU. They are......

BIRMINGHAM
MURPHY
POWELL

MULLIN....is found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150, Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU....and ONLY with a rare
Piedmont 350.



The 2nd Series of T206's was issued in early 1910 and consists of 216 cards that are classified as "350-only"
Subjects.

Jack Dunn was issued in the 350-only Series. There are NO HORIZONTAL cards in the 350-only Series, or the
350/460 Series, or the 460-only Series.

That's it guys.....get a copy of Scot Reader's "INSIDE T206" book and read it thoroughly. It is very informative
and perhaps we can have some future intelligent discussions regarding the T206 cards.


Until you do get more informed.....you are looking foolish with your "gotcha" posts.


T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Anonymous

Ted a very informative post.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

you keep reverting back to your issuing point as a way of saying the card can't be a horizontal, but i don't think that is at the basis of what determines a horizontal card.

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Posted By: paulstratton

I don't know why you're singling me out Ted. I was trying to get Joe's question answered since nobody seemed to be responding. Quit being condescending, I have SReaders "book" and I have hundreds of t206's. Do I know all the nuances like you? No. I'm still learning so if that makes me look foolish then oh well what can I do.

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Posted By: Joe Drouillard

Hello Ted,

Thanks for answering my question with your explanation. I appreciate it.

Best wishes,

Joe

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Posted By: Rawn Hill

Back to the original topic.........Wouldn't Brother Mathias be considered Babe's first manager/coach?

Rawn

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Posted By: John

"Until you do get more informed.....you are looking foolish with your "gotcha" posts."

Ted...play nice I remember a certain someone who went to the stones saying Plank didn't come with a certain factory 30 on the 150 series Sweet Cap...

In the end all we can be is a bit more informed but as you know with this set today’s rules are broken with tomorrow’s discoveries...

For me I’m not sure either way but will say the card looks better horizontal…FWIW.


Ted...also

"MULLIN....is found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150, Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU....and ONLY with a rare
Piedmont 350."

It would be safe to say IMO that Pattee & Pelty along with others were most likley printed in the 350 as well, we just haven't found them yet I see no need to select just 4 of the 6 above to carry into the 350 by themselves...that's just my thoughts.

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Posted By: David R

The tone of this is getting a little ridiculous, don't you think. I think we all need to go clean out our Star Wars Underoos and come back and play nice with our baseball cards. I agree that a lot of things that we thought were gospel yesterday continue to get updated based on further information and discoveries. And even the most knowledgeable among us have been proven wrong.

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Posted By: dennis

mccormack diving

phelps diving


and dolin exercising

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm with Ted - the card is vertical.

And I think it's just a contrived pose, like so many of the old judge studio shots. If the card were horizontal Dunn would be lying flat on his belly; otherwise, his legs would have to be bent at an almost impossible angle.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for getting this thread back on topic.

Brother Mathias was indeed Babe Ruth's first BB coach and mentor....but, more than this he was a father figure to Ruth
and a strict disciplinarian.

Jack Dunn was Ruth's first professional BB manager.

Dunn, having a keen eye for talent, spotted Ruth playing at St. Mary's Industrial School for Boys....and, signed Ruth
to a Major League contract when Ruth was 19 years old.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I admitted my mistake regarding the Plank SC 150/30 card. Even Bill Heitman's book and Scot Reader's 1st book edition had not
accounted for the existence of this back on Plank.


Now are we going to see an apology from Ali L....regarding his remark to me......

"already proved wrong ted's theory on the series numbers." ? ?

A stupid remark like this shows how uninformed this guy is about the T206 set.


Look, JOHN W, I started what I thought was an interesting thread about an unheralded T206 guy and the role he played in
launching Babe Ruth's career.

And, then it was "hijacked"....simply because in my opinion, the Dunn card in no way represents a horizontal T206 card.
If this card had an artistic backdrop, the argument would be over.


Now, I am surprised at your comment....

"It would be safe to say IMO that Pattee & Pelty along with others were most likley printed in the 350 as well, we just haven't
found them yet I see no need to select just 4 of the 6 above to carry into the 350 by themselves...that's just my thoughts."

There are 11 cards in the 1st Series that are classified as "150-only" Subjects......this is an established fact.

Ames (hands/chest)
M Brown (Cubs)
G Brown (Chi)
Burch (batting)
Donlin (fielding)
L Doyle (throwing)
Evers (bat-blue sky)
Pattee (Horiz.)
Pelty (Horiz.)
Powers
Reulbach (glove)

These will never be found with any 350 backs. One can live to 100 and have looked at 100,000 T206's and I'll bet you....you
will never find any of these 11 with any other back then a 150-type.

TED Z

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Posted By: paulstratton

I think the "uniqueness" of the pose discussion has actually led to more information about Dunn than what would have otherwise come out in a straight biographical thread. Since he played most of his games at a position other than pitcher, the pose is not as strange as I first thought and I would agree that it is not a horizontal.

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Posted By: Tom B

Good post about Dunn as agree his impact to the game is very under recognized. As this has inevitably become a dual thread I will add that I first saw it as horizontal and have trouble seeing differently although I see people's points. As the "its horizontal" crowd seems to be in the minority here I will add a pic I found which might explain the green background of the card and perhaps the way he is positioned as at least being possible.

Good thread on both topics and just my opinion of course.

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Posted By: John

Ted,
There have been many cards that have been listed as 150 only that have been found in the 350...in fact Lipsets book didn't even mention the Ames hands at chest back in the day it listed just 10 cards as 150 only.

I stand by the fact that I think many of the cards that are thought to be 150 only cards may have been in fact printed in the 350 we just haven't found them or they have been lost to time due to being printed in such short numbers. That’s why I’m always looking for them.

Hence Lindaman and many of the 150 series tough cards that you and I have been buying in the 350 series variety were once thought only to be in the 150.

Ted my point is simple I’m not debating if Dunn is vertical or horizontal I agree with Paul M it’s art everyone will have their own take.

My point is as much as I love you and I do guy... but sometimes you come off a bit like the self appointed T206 God what you say is final on T206. Which is cool you know a lot but nobody is a true expert on these cards the t206 set has all sorts of surprises and nuances that we will never really figure it out 100%.

So my theory that we may find 150 only series cards with 350 backs someday or that they may in fact have been printed at one time is no different or any less educated a theory than any of your printing or American Caramel exclusive stuff both very hard to prove without evidence, but both made with educated assumptions.

And for you to call anyone stupid or uninformed isn’t productive per say, because as I proved to you with the Plank card even someone with your knowledge can get it wrong when it comes to T206.

Cheers,

John

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

TomB...

You are correct that it is possible for it to be a diving pose. The main sticking point with that though, is that if you look at Dunn's face, he's seemingly way too relaxed to be in the middle of a dive. The picture above Dunn in your post reflects this...that player is all tensed up waiting for impact with the ground, as I would think all players would be.

Edited to add:

Also, looking at the visible part of each player's pants...The player above Dunn: his pants are parallel to the ground. Dunn's pants however, are not parallel; they appear to start into a roughly 45 degree angle toward the ground.

Based on this, I really don't believe that the photo is of Dunn in a dive. I suppose we'll probably never know until and unless the original photo surfaces.


Steve

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Posted By: Anonymous

we should have a poll

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I wasn't inferring that you are "uninformed"....I'm sorry it came out that way.

I was singling out that dude named "Ali_L"....who obviously knows very little about T206's......
by what he thought was a "gotcha" remark at me.......
"already proved wrong ted's theory on the series numbers."

When I explained in detail all the possible back arrangements of the six Horizontal cards in the
T206 set in my above post, he could have been man enough to apologize for such a crass re-
mark (or at least admit his error).

But, what did Ali_L do, instead....he edited out this sentence in his post at 4:25 PM.

I, and many others on this forum, don't dig this kind of crap.
If you are going to question someone's expertise on this forum, you better be able to back it up.
Instead of "throwing" some "B-S" out there; and, then go into hiding by editing out your "B-S".


So PAUL, please accept my apology, if I offended you.

TED Z

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

This is a very unfortunate use of the editing function. A certain rookie card collector used to do this when he was shown to be mistaken about something, and then all the posts after his made no sense.

If you make a mistake, apologize like an adult, don't edit it out unless you are requested to do so.

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Posted By: samuel

apologies, I did this. will not happen again.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I don't recall what you posted....but, I not talking about you.

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Posted By: paulstratton

No worries Ted. You really think I want to argue with you about the nuances of T206? That would be like trying to prosecute one of Lichtman's clients or submitting an unedited first draft English paper to Barry. No thanks!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Your starting to sound like a "broken record" regarding the Plank card......you stated:

"And for you to call anyone stupid or uninformed isn’t productive per say, because as I proved
to you with the Plank card even someone with your knowledge can get it wrong when it comes
to T206."

I responded to it earlier here.,,,,did you bother to read my post ?

And, as for my "uninformed" statement.....I just posted an apology to Paul Stratton, because I
didn't mean to accuse him of being uninformed. It was a dude by the name of "Ali_L" that I was
addressing. If you are at all interested in what prompted me to say this, then read the post I
just posted to Paul Stratton. I am not going to repeat the details again.

TED Z

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Peter,

Now you want members to act like adults?

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Posted By: John

Ted, the Plank was just an example no offense intended...lighten up even if this Ali guy knows nothing about T206's who cares? Just point out your knowledge hopefully he will learn if not do you really care if he does?

I mean it's not like you worked at the factory on these cards in 1909-11 and he's ragging on your life’s work etc. that's all I'm saying.

Cheers,

John

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

hey ted, i edited my message because you apparently got really upset over me saying someone proved your theory wrong. i'm sorry for offending you. i still think you're wrong about the card and that is my opinion, something i am entitled to have. i edited my post as a subtle way to appease you, but you seem to be harping on it. we're talking about baseball cards. there is no need to take it as personally as you seem to have done.

you started the argument and discussion with the first sentence of your post, which you edited, and then attack me for editing my post. if you had just stuck to your original intention of discussing Dunn and not taken the opportunity to flex your t206 muscle this diversion would have been avoided.

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Posted By: Rob D.

For what it's worth (and against my better judgement), I'm mentioning this only because Ted jumped all over Ali for editing a comment, but Ted did pretty much the same thing with his original post.

The very first sentence of Ted's first post originally started with a comment on the horizontal vs. vertical argument of the Dunn card. Then, after many posters, apparently to Ted's chagrin, found that discussion to be more interesting than documenting the life of Jack Dunn, Ted deleted his original horizontal-vertical reference.

The editing of posts can change the perception of the flow of discussion. When Ted later bemoaned the fact that his thread was "hijacked" by the horizontal-vertical debaters, he appeared to have a valid point, because his original comment on the subject -- the first one posted on the thread -- had been deleted.

Ted, I don't desire a pissing contest with you. It just seems that in this case you opened the floor for debate, then got really annoyed when opinions different than yours ensued.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

1st......so, you still say......
"i still think you're wrong about the card and that is my opinion, something i am entitled to have."

You are entitled to your opinion on this matter.....but, you are 100% wrong.


Let's review this scenario....Joe D posts a scan of his T206 Powell (horizontal) with a Sweet Cap 350 back.

You followed up with your...."already proved wrong ted's theory on the series numbers."

This told me that you did not understand the complexities of the T206 front/back permutations.
So, I proceeded to explain in detail the back arrangement of the 6 horizontal T206 cards for you, and Joe D,
and anyone else that was interested.

I will repeat this information here for your benefit, since I don't think you bothered to read it the first time.


These six HORIZONTAL cards were printed in the 1st Series of T206 set and issued in 1909/1910




Two are classified as "150-only" Subjects....that means they are ONLY found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150,
Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU. They are......

PATTEE
PELTY

Three HORIZONTAL cards are classified as 150/350 Subjects....that is they are found with Piedmont 150 or 350,
Sweet Cap 150 or 350, Sovereign 150 or 350 and Brown HINDU. They are......
\--------------------/

BIRMINGHAM
MURPHY
POWELL <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Joe D's card....that you questioned my knowledge of

MULLIN....is found with Piedmont 150, Sweet Cap 150, Sovereign 150 and Brown HINDU....and ONLY with a rare
Piedmont 350.


OK, do you understand this now ?

If so, perhaps you can understand why I'm ticked-off at you....be a man and admit you jumped to a rash con-
clusion that was unwarranted ?


2nd......I deleted the comments in my initial post here regarding the "horizontal" aspect of the Jack Dunn card because
it was causing a distraction to my original intent of this thread regarding Jack Dunn.
If someone wants to "hijack" a thread, they would be better served to initiate a new thread on their off-topic post.


TED Z

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

ted no offense, but this is bordering on ridiculous. i apologized to you already. you're still hung up on it. did me saying someone proved you wrong really get you that upset? you keep re-itterating things that don't really matter. you can keep chastising me because i'm not a self appointed expert like you, but in the end i don't really care to be.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Ali- don't want to get in the middle of a dispute, but on the six horizontal cards above all the players are standing upright. In the case of the Dunn, he would have to be lunging through the air for the card to be horizontal, and no other known T206 has that design. I respect your opinion but I do disagree.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

no problem barry. people feel one way or another about everything.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I think there's a Baltimore Orioles connection here, Jack Dunn was both Ruth's manager in Baltimore and the inspiration for a diving Brooks Robinson two generations later.

Seriously, Ali, you are free to form your own opinions but to suggest that what Ted is bringing up is completely irrelevant is just being willful. Obviously if no other horizontal cards were issued in the 350 only series that is germane to the question of the intent behind this card.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

i don't really want to argue about it anymore. i'm mainly just posting because i already apologized for offending ted but he is still upset. all i was trying to do was say i was sorry for hurting his feelings.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I opened this thread with it's title....

"T206 JACK DUNN....Babe Ruth's 1st manager"

As, I like to post interesting stories on not-to-well known T206 Subjects. And, I thought Dunn's
story would be of great interest to Net54 members, who were unaware of the starting role Dunn
played in Ruth's career.

Yes, I rue the moment that I even brought up the vertical/horizontal aspect of this card. I didn't
expect the controversy that ensued.

So, I deleted that sentence in my initial post here regarding the vertical/horizontal aspect of the
Jack Dunn card because it was causing a distraction to my original intent of this thread regarding
Jack Dunn and Babe Ruth.

Was there some "diabolical" reason for my deleting this sentence....I don't think so !

I simply did it to get the conversation on this thread back On-Topic for new readers accessing it.

In any event Rob, tell me what you are alluding to here, as I don't quite understand it......? ?

"The editing of posts can change the perception of the flow of discussion. When Ted later
bemoaned the fact that his thread was "hijacked" by the horizontal-vertical debaters, he
appeared to have a valid point, because his original comment on the subject -- the first
one posted on the thread -- had been deleted."

Lastly, I'm really not annoyed when opinions differ from mine. I have posted so-called controversial
threads in the past just to motivate a good discussion. In this case, if some one posts a criticism
of me (or for that matter anyone else) that is blatantly false....you darn right I will be contentious.




TED Z

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Posted By: Rob D.

Sorry for the delay in responding to your question, Ted, I was away from the computer almost afternoon Saturday. Also, apologies for apparently not being clear enough in my post.

You ask, "In any event Rob, tell me what you are alluding to here, as I don't quite understand it......? ?

Simple:

1. An original post (yours) is made, which includes what you call a factual statement that the Dunn card is not horizontal. This post also includes a mini-bio on Dunn.

2. After the thread becomes almost exclusively a debate on the horizontal-vertical issue, something you've decided should not happen, you go back and delete the horizontal-vertical references in your post.

3. After your original reference to the horizontal-vertical has been deleted, you complain that your thread was "hijacked," and that all you wanted was a discussion on Dunn's life in baseball.

I'm not "alluding" to anything. I'm clearly saying that it's not right to accuse folks of hijacking a thread by discussing a topic (horizontal vs. vertical) that you originally posted then deleted.

You've explained why you edited your post after the discussion went in a direction you didn't want it to. That's your choice. But I don't think it's right to complain about your thread being hijacked when it wasn't.

(Not to mention this all happened in a thread in which you jumped on someone else for editing one of his posts after the fact.)

Hope that's clearer. Thanks.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for your response to my question....I better understand your prior comment.

However, I don't see the correlation of my deletion to this statement of yours.......

"(Not to mention this all happened in a thread in which you jumped on someone else for
editing one of his posts after the fact.)"

The "operative" word here is...."FACT". There was nothing FACTUAL in what he said, he
just threw it out as a "gotcha" statement, and then deleted it when he was called on it.

He claims he deleted it since he did not want to "offend me".....after the fact ? ?

More likely, he realized that he did not know what he was talking about and wanted to
cover it up.

I think you will agree that there is a distinct degree of difference between my deletion
and his deletion ?


TED Z

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Posted By: Rob D.

Ted,

If it will make you feel better and you'll stop rationalizing, then yes: I AGREE with you.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

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Posted By: ali_lapoint

you know ted, i'm about fed up with your attitude. i already apologized to you in multiple posts for hurting your feelings and yet you still feel the need to assert some sort of superiority complex over me and everyone else who disagrees with you. i understand you see yourself as a t206 expert, but that doesn't give you the right to be so arrogant about it all. i didnt delete my post because i think what i said was stupid, i deleted my post because it bothered you and then i apologized. it would be nice to receive the same courtesy as i have shown you.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I knew 3 things when this thread started....


Knew who Dunn was, about his managing years, and the Babe.

Knew that Ted should have posted a Colgan's Chip of Dunn, or gold border tobacco card, a T205.

And I knew that white border image was going to lead to trouble...