Talking about escalating values - M101-4/5 backs

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Posted By: leon

Not trying to feather my own nest as I have none for sale but I am simply amazed at the price escalation (sorry if anyone is offended at a money aspect of cards) of the M101-4/5 backs....About 5-6 years ago I thought I paid way too much from my friend Jay M for almost a complete back set....I think today it would be a bargain.....and I still haven't ever seen another Gimbels like the one in the middle here.....anyone else?





http://cgi.ebay.com/1916-M101-4-Block-Kuhl-Co-Jake-Daubert-Brooklyn_W0QQitemZ160110905379QQihZ006QQcategoryZ8 6841QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Paul

I'm mostly a postcard collector, but I'm not surprised by the prices for rare backs. I've been thinking about branching out into that aspect of type collecting. Seems I'm always slow to the game when things are heating up. Very intersting to see all those backs, & to search for those rarities.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I would term it escalating prices, not value. I was the underbidder on that Block&Kuhl, which I believe would have gone even higher had it been properly slotted on the Old Cardboard website--it is more difficult than Burgess Nash and Indy Brewing and way more difficult than the Gimbel's and Morehouse Baking.

I personally believe that type collectors are getting involved in the m101 chase, but it's the speculators that are or will be turning it into a frenzy. Sure there are some backs that are really scarce, but as you know, the demand has not been there. Pre-war "investors" are quick to liken it to the T206 back scarcity chase, when demand for these will never be the same as what exists for that set. Certainly there is no one trying to put together a complete set of any of these scarce backs, so either the m101 set itself lures them in, they're type collectors, or they just invest in scarce pre-war. My money says its the last group bidding up most of these. Sadly, for those of us just chasing the set, it raises the bar dramatically, but I suspect those collecting other pre-war sets have experienced the same thing over the past 2-3 years.

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Posted By: leon

I agree with most of what you say except for a few things. No way is Block and Kuhl more scarce than 2 of the 3 Gimbels. It is more scarce than the most common one so I will concede that. Your observations may be different though. You also said no one is trying to complete an M101-4/5 back set? I know of a few folks doing it, besides yourself....I sold a Morehouse to a board member this week and he is only a few away from completion. Tim N collects them, JC, Robert S (I believe) and more I can't think of right now...and many more I have no idea about, I am sure. Otherwise, I agree....best regards

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

What I meant is that nobody is collecting a complete Block & Kuhl set, a complete Mall Theatre set, etc. Collectors trying to get a complete back set, as you described, are basically just type collectors, IMO.

When I posted, I assumed type collectors were just interested in a Gimbel's back, not all three variations, and in that respect, B&Ks are far more difficult than Gimbels and Morehouse Baking. The entire Old Cardboard gallery should be tweaked to the extent people rely on it for relative scarcity--for example, it would not be too far off to flat-out swap Successful Farming for Morehouse Baking--but that's a subject for another day.

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Posted By: leon

I misunderstood you. I agree that only type collectors would be going for the backs....for the most part...unless there is a player collector and one of the M101's with a rare back has their player on it...but then it's still not collecting a full set of any of the backs. I think I am the only one crazy enough to include the Gimbels variations. Also, we still need to at least throw in the Noon Day Cafeteria one, at least with an asterisk as I don't know of anyone that has seen one except for a poor Xerox copy of a back from about 20 years ago. I love "back" collecting....

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Posted By: Scott

I have been trying to assemble this set with all Famous & Barr backs. Other than blank backs, I think it's the most common (along with the Sporting News back).I have 57. They used to be around a little bit. Other than the Thorpe that recently sold in the auction, there hasn't been much on ebay for months. Even the last few that went on ebay were escalating much higher in price. Most people who I've talked to are holding what they have or asking for a ton. I find the card pictures really neat.

Scott (ubiqty)

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I think you've got a shot at completing F&B, in m101-5 at least. Along with blanks, TSN and maybe (but doubtful) Standard Biscuit, you've picked an attainable set, IMHO. Good luck, but unlike T206 or other smaller pre-war sets, where most of the cards are pretty much always available, here it's not just money, but patience you will need, as I'm sure you've figured out already without my two cents.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

I think a Famous and Barr M101-5 set would still be manageable but as Todd says, it would take a while. When I started collecting M101, the F & Bs were really cheap and I accumulated 53 of them as I worked on getting every card in the set with whatever back I could find. I agree, they have been drying up recently.

All of us doing back type sets put the middle-to-scarcest backs in a slightly different order, usually depending on how long it took us to find one. Although Leon, Todd, and I have been working on this for a while, I don't think anybody really has enough info to be certain whether Everybody's or Holmes or Successful Farming or Green-Joyce or Mall Theater is the toughest, and by how much.

And sadly, a population survey like the one I did with T207 doesn't seem quite so feasible, because there are so few of these cards in circulation compared to the major tobacco sets. But Todd and I are getting going on a jointly authored article for Old Cardboard so we'll be asking for some type of info from all of you in the near future.

Tim

PS: I really hope the Noon Day Cafeteria back is an urban legend, because if it exists Leon will accumulate every copy within seconds of their discovery

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Tim, Todd:

As a collector just getting started with M101-4 and -5, I'm reallly looking forward to the OC article!

Scot

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

We have just begun to plan the article itself, but we've been gathering info on the sets for a while and I think we'll be able to add significantly to the knowledge base on the sets.

Tim

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Posted By: Scott

I'll be looking forward to your article and all the input people give you. When are you hoping to complete it? I've found that most people can't (because they don't know) or won't (because of whatever reason) discuss these sets. Other than the blanket F & B is easy statement or I know a guy who has lots of those, not much discussion happens. Most of the graded examples to SGC were submitted by me. One interesting thing I've found is that other than the common numbered cards between M101-4 and M101-5, I seem to be only able to find low numbered M101-4 examples. My only M101-4 F & B cards are Baker #9 and Barry #11. I've missed a couple low ones in auction, but haven't even seen one numbered above #100 (or #50 for that matter). I've only been watching them for a few years though.

Scott (ubiqty)

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Scott,
You bring up an interesting point about M101-4 Famous and Barr. I had been struck by this as well, and for a while I was toying with a theory that since M101-4 is clearly later than M101-5 (even if they did both appear in 1916), maybe the department store didn't get around to distributing the whole set, but only the first numbers.

That could still be largely true, but I did finally find one very late number (Vitt #181) to go with the others I had, which are 2, 6, 10, 11, and 20. By the way, (Scott, you probably know that)the common numbers can be assigned to M101-4 or M101-5 because the Famous and Barr backs are printed in different directions relative to the fronts in each set.

I also think the scarcity of the M101-4 Famous and Barrs is drastically underestimated, probably because people know the back is common in M101-5 and just assume it's true overall.

Is it possible are we dealing with such small numbers of survivors in M101-4 F&B that one person's hoard, which stopped after the first couple of dozen numbers, provides most of what we now see?

This is a question for us to keep investigating-- who else has Famous and Barr backs with M101-4 numbers? And what numbers do you have? Post 'em or let me or Todd Schultz know.

Thanks!

Tim

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Posted By: J Levine

Here is an example of a "higher" numbered Famous and Barr.

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Posted By: Scott

Thanks J.

I think thats an M101-5.

Scott.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

according to the number. Howard is #84 in M101-5, #85 in M101-4.

I don't think I have my #181 Vitt scanned but I'll post it when I can get to the scanner.

Anybody else have F&B backs with M101-4 numbers?

Tim

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Posted By: John S

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

Tim, my only F&B is #47, Demaree. Leon, I have a Gimbel's back Marquard but it's the first of the three back variations you list. I haven't seen the second version.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Thanks Bruce, for always being eager to contribute to these little initiatives. You're a good guy. The Demaree #47 is also an M101-5 number.

John, thanks also! However, Gibson is a common number (68 in both sets) so it's difficult to tell for sure which set it comes from.

I used to think the rule of thumb for telling an M101-4 F&B from an M101-5 was that on the backs of the M101-4s the F in Famous corresponds to the top of the picture on the front.

But I now realize that my Vitt #181 does not fit that pattern.

I think we can still say that MOST M101-4 F&Bs are printed this way, but clearly it's not universal.

M101-5 backs can be found with both printing orientations. We will need to study which, if either, is more difficult. I haven't even gone through my own yet--

The other way I've used to distinguish them is that the M101-4 F&Bs tend to be a lot whiter than the -5s, which are often found with a distinct yellowish/sepia tint, both on front and back.

Anyone else care to weigh in with some info on this? Thanks in advance--

Tim

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Posted By: .

.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Beautiful card.

The numbers are really the only way to tell for an absolute certainty which set a given card belongs to. And not all of them work either! #1-7, 65-71, 141-153, and 198-200 are the same players in both sets.

I see SGC decided not to bother to identify this one by set, only with a 1916 date. Not sure why they wouldn't, since there is no ambiguity about Sullivan's numbers, which are different in the two sets.

By the way, there is a useful combined M101-4/M101-5 checklist at www.oldcardboard.com. I use it all the time. It has a couple of gaps and small errors, but it is laid out in a way that really helps to ID a card in one set or the other.

Tim

The challenge continues: can anyone supply M101-4 numbers with F&B backs, other than the ones already mentioned?

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Posted By: jay behrens

SGC label my Thorpe card 1916 Famous & Barr with no m101-5 designation even though that's the only set Thorpe came in. It's not a bad route to take as a slabber since you don't have to decide if a card is an m1014/5, just give the year and the advertiser on back and there is are no issues as to what set it should really belong in.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

are found with ads running in either direction, although the m101-4s usually are found with the ad printed top to bottom, and the m101-5s are far more often found with the ad running bottom to top.

Most m101-4 F&Bs are found in the lower numbers, but not all.

Most m101-5 F&Bs are toned, but not all.

I welcome and would appreciate any scans and/or listings that you may have compiled.

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Posted By: Mark L

Leon,
I have three Gimbels but only one like this. Which player do you have with this back?

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Posted By: leon

Hey Mark,
Now these kinds of threads pulled up, from only a few months ago, and on topic, are perfectly fine imo. As for Gimbels here is what I think I have (I might have previously sold a dupe though)..


1916 M101-4 J. Wilson vg-ex
Gimbels-large print

1916 M101-4 Leonard ex-mt
Gimbels-large print

1916 M101-4 B. Bescher vg-ex
Gimbels-large block

1916 M101-4 Ames vg-ex
Gimbels-small print

1916 M101-4 Austin nrmt
Gimbels-small print

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Posted By: Jerry

I still can't believe that I lucked on to those 10 Successful Farming's that I sold recently. If it hadn't been for this forum, I wouldn't even known to buy them. I hope the buyers enjoy them.