Mastronet T215 "Pirate" Back

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Posted By: Cobby33

I'm sure most of you have seen this:

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=54451&CFID=1959633&CFTOKEN=70979476

but does anybody know where else one of these "Pirate" backs could be located? Thanks a lot.

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Posted By: pete ullman

Good Luck finding one! In my 25 years of collecting I've seen 2 of them for sale including the one in maestro.

pete in st paul

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Posted By: andy becker

i'm really surprised we haven't discussed this yet. this is only the second one i've ever seen also.
has anyone seen more than two (this and one other)?

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Posted By: Bryan Long

But wasn't this card at the national this year? I think this is the card that I remember seeing at a table - I know I did because I bought some e95 cards off of the guy. A very Net54 friendly guy. These cards were issued to service men in England right? That is probably why you only see one once in a blue moon.

My website: http://photobucket.com/albums/b45/trib01/
I am always looking for Walter Johnson cards. Buying or trading for T206 Johnson and Mathewson portraits.

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Posted By: andy becker

bryan,
was it for sale when you saw it? or was it part of the mastro display?

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Posted By: Bryan Long

"For the right price." Several people on this forum knows who he is, but I can't remember his name. It was graded AUT already. He may have given it to Mastro while he was at the Nationals. Others on this board know who I am talking about. I think I mentioned the card to Leon during one of our many conversations.

My website: http://photobucket.com/albums/b45/trib01/
I am always looking for Walter Johnson cards. Buying or trading for T206 Johnson and Mathewson portraits.

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Posted By: pete ullman

I ALSO saw it at the national...but I can't remember the fellow's name either. He purchased it on ebay somewhat recently for a very fair price as it was ASA? graded...graded by hager's co. and was presumably trimmed I believe.

The other I saw at the national in 95' for sale by david festburg and he was asking $1500.

I misread the price tag and thought he was selling it for $150...I said I'd take it! When I realized it was $1500...he shortly thereafter stopped showering me with attention!!!!

pete in st paul

PS If you're looking for it for a type collection...like me...I settled on an oriental character front card with the same back which I got for $10 a bunch of years ago...they're much more common!!!

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Posted By: Glen V

There was also one on Ebay earlier this year. Think it sold for around 6K. They are rare, but 2K for a trimmed one seems high...

There are some good excuses for type collectors to avoid this issue. Since they are from England, this is a foreign issue which Leon doesn't (didn't?) collect, getting him out of needed one. I don't worry about back variations, so my T215 Red Cross completes that ACC #.

.

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Posted By: tbob

is the seller's name and yes this is the card he had on his table at National. It is only the second one I've ever seen (I guess we have all seen the same two since they are so rare). Gary took a chance on the card on ebay and was delighted to find that it was authentic. I know a lot of us had our doubts and didn't take the chance. gary did and was rewarded. It is a beautiful card.

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Posted By: Craig Lipman

That is Gary's card.
Gary is a terrific person and a true collector
I hope he does very well with his consignmenta

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Posted By: millerhouse

GlenV,

I've never ever seen a plausible explanation as to why Pirate Cigarette cards should be considered T215s. The American Card Catalog certainly doesn't so categorize them, they bear no relationship to T215-2s, which are a later issue with a blue caption, and they bear no more relationship, from what I can tell, to T215-1s than do the brown captioned T213-1 Coupons. Maybe someone once suggested that they share a common checklist, but, get real. No one can come close to suggesting what a complete checklist of Pirate Cigarette cards would be, so few have been found.

At bottom, GlenV, I think a type collection needs a TUnc. Pirate Cigarettes card, along with both T215-1 and T215-2 Red Crosses.

Dan Gantt

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Posted By: Alan Zimmerman

also wanted to speak the praises of Gary. he was a staple of my younger years in good old western new york. he had the best card collection i have ever had the privilege of seeing and i also enjoyed his store while it was open. i got some incredible deals through gary over the years, and it is good to see he hasnt left the hobby altogether.

alan

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Posted By: JimB

I met Gary at the National this year. We had dinner together at the Net 54 party and spoke for hours at his table. He is a great guy, though I wish I could pry a few of his treasured caramels from him.
JimB

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I could be wrong here but I remember Alan Hagar selling a few Pirates in an auction he had in the late 1990's. In the auction, I purchased a bunch of Colgan square "proofs". I distinctly remember bidding on his Pirate pack that was paired with a chinese actress card (and losing the lot). However, I also remember that Hagar was auctioning off quite a few Pirates, maybe 5 or so, including an Evers. I believe the auction was in SCD although I also remember getting an auction catalog in the mail. Maybe someone still has the catalog and could verify how many Pirates were sold.

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

The 1999 SCD lists 92 different T215 pirate backs. FWIW

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Posted By: pete ullman

jon...you may be right! I was at my parents house over thanksgiving and I came across a few old hager auction catalogs and he had a bunch or oriental cards...but I don't think any baseball!

The vintage prices finally caught up to good old Alan...he was way way ahead of his time...ha ha ha!!!

pete in mn

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Posted By: Millerhouse

Mr. McKenzie notes that the 1999 SCD catalog lists 92 Pirate backs, which, indeed, the 2006 catalog does as well. Once again, I would guess that SCD, upon originally listing the Pirates, simply cadged the T215-1 listing that it then had based upon the surmise that these two sets were somehow connected.

Amusingly, the current Pirate write-up in the SCD catalog states that "the fronts of the cards are identical to the Red Cross cards." But, of course, the very same statement can be made about T206s and T213-1s: "the fronts of both sets of cards are identical to the Red Cross cards." This neither makes them T206s nor T213-1s.

Nor do I see or perceive any connection between "Pirate" Cigarettes, issued by the Wills company of Bristol and London, England, and Red Cross Tobacco from New Jersey.

Is there any basis in substance or fact for calling these cards T215s? So far, I am aware of none. I'd love to hear from others on this.

Dan Gantt

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

Dan,

In the 1999 SCD Red Cross type one is listed at 86 subjects and Red Cross type 2 at 78 subjects. So, it seems some more Red Cross subjects have been reported from 1999 until the present checklist.

The Pirate back checklist number is unchanged, so I'm assuming someone found 92 different Pirate backs and reported them at some point.

I agree that the Pirate cards are a different issue from the Red Cross, whatever the designation.

regards

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Posted By: Glen V

I've heard that the late Sir Edward Wharton Tigar had a group of Pirate cards. After his death, Alan Hager was able to buy them. Can't remember how many there were, maybe in the 10-20 card range???

I'll response to Dan's posts in the "Type Card Collecting" thread.


.

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Posted By: ty_cobb

The T215 Pirate I've seen is Doolan, but thats about
5 years ago now. I seem to recall it had some
miscut issue as well, but from what I've heard this
is typical of Pirate cards, so not necessarily
a later trimming.

Of the 'Chinese' character fronts I have 4, all
completely different sizes, and even 1 on different
cardboard stock.

Also have a T215 Pirate cigarette outer slide pack, but
these would more likely have housed the the 'Chinese'
charcter cards which appear to have been produced
over a longer period than the baseball issue. An example of a
Red Cross pack does not seem to exist at all.

As to set designation: as far as I know Red Cross
were originally considered 'T206'. So someone decided
otherwise, and my guess here would be early 60s.
One could debate whether this is based solely on
similar subject matter. My thoughts: someone saw/owns
store advertising/promotional literature connecting
Red Cross(Lorillards)and Wills. While I have seen similar
'brochures' , it still does little to satisfy the question
of New Orleans issue vs overseas issue.

That may be more of a 'modern' American view, which
sees 'Pirate' as a foreign brand. I'd be happier though
if the new explanation was backed by significant years
of card/pack/company/literature study rather
than no study which touts regionalism as the defining difference.

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Posted By: Millerhouse

Responding to some of what's been set forth above, the idea that there exists some cache of 92 Pirate backs, when each of us is struggling to identify one or two each, seems unlikely. Wharton-Tigar would, indeed, have been the most likely source for such a cache, but 10-20 is a far sight short of 92.

I'd be most interested to hear from Bob Lemke on the original source for his Pirate Cigarettes listing.

And, if my recollection is correct, Red Crosses had been designated separately by the ACC by the late fifties. Undoubtedly, like T213s and T214s, they were given a separate listing from T206s because their blue caption variation, containing Federal League team notations, clearly post-dated T206.

Modern view/old view, there is no doubt that Pirates arose overseas. The cards themselves bear Wills' name and English origin on the backs. Guessing aside, does anyone know of any connection between Wills and Red Cross, whose cards, by the way, bear a New Jersey factory number and not Louisiana?

Dan Gantt

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Posted By: scott brockelman

originally from the tremendous type collection of John & Judy Burk.

sorry for the lack of clarity, scanned in the holder.

scott

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Posted By: ty_cobb

When I look at the new Mastro catalog, really the
only important page is Bill Mastro's story on Frank
Nagy.

What a 'colllector' does today is mostly capitalism,
and ignores any tenet of real collecting that Frank
Nagy not only used for himself, but was a mentor to others.

The T215 Pirate is the perfect example. I'll collect
it 'if' its American and there is associated monetary gain.
I don't need it if its foreign.

Someone else can do all the crap work of actually
researching it, but as it suits me monetarily I
don't need to spend the hours and will simply
sit back and spend about 5 minutes twisting someone
else's logic to suit mine so I can make a profit.

I swear, some days I'm convinced I'm living in a
New Dark Ages, and I wish my observations of how
people are was confined to baseball cards, but
even in the workplace today there is little evidence
of rational thought. And who cares about truth when
there's money to be made.

Ok, back to T215. Lets use our imagination for once
and forget about baseball. It is not always the right
'window' from which to view cartophilic research.

The 'Red Cross' factory exists in New Jersey because
that is where Pierre Lorillard's tobacco factory was.
http://www.jerseycityhistory.net/warehousenomination.html

Wills was the largest stakeholder in the UK tobacco
consortium opposing the American Dukes bid to take
over the UK market. Not a whole lot of reason to provide
baseball cards overseas, they couldn't care less.
But they didn't do the tobacco card printing.That was
done by another member of the UK group opposing the US
cartel. The printers were Mardon, Son, and Hall of the UK.

Because we are so wrapped up in baseball cards over here
no one has bothered to actually spend the time to figure out
who did the printing in the US, and because it requires
no research its easy just to suppose it happens at
each factory as printed on the back of the card.

The volume of knowledge that passed when Wharton-Tigar
passed is lost but to a few of his contemporaries.
Did he know the T215s were not printed in the UK?
Without question he had some quantity of the cards
and did the releveant research. Is it him that makes
the de facto statement "issued for US servicemen overseas" ?
Doubtless he had some factory correspondence to prove such...

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Posted By: Glen V

Where the hell did that post come from??? I don't recall any of the above posts talking about people only collecting for monetary gain. There was talk of limiting what one collects because people can't afford everything. Do you really believe that everybody that "collects" today only cares about money? Think there's a lot of collectors here who might expect an apology for that one...

.

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Posted By: ty_cobb

But the hobby is about acquiring cards, and
there is a money component associated with that.
As of now there are 22 bidders on the T215 Tinker
and the next minimum bid is $4096.00

If I or someone else could find the printers of T215
would any of those 22 bidders pay $4096 for that type
of historical information on their hobby?

Is research of that type not also of monetary value?
Of the 22 bidders, how many would spend $4096 to do
the work themselves of finding out printing and
distribution methods of T215s or T206s to share with the
hobby?

Is it rational or good for the hobby not to find such
information and value the cardboard itself? It is a
choice to take after all. We can sit here and 50 years
later choose not to know who the printers of early US cards
are and value the cardboard 10X higher again.

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Posted By: pete ullman

you cant know everything! maybe some things remain unknown for a reason...mysteries. life would be kinda boring if we knew everything wouldn't it.

knowledge is definitely power, but I don't think $$$ can be placed on knowlege of a cards orogin...I personally like the story about them being issued to officers in england. why are there so few t206 honusii? the tobacco rumor doesn't seem to hold water...it's a mystery!

the pirate'll probably sell for $5k...well worth it in my opinion!

pete in mn

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Posted By: Zach R.

I have to agree with Glenn, that post came out of nowhere on a healthy discussion about T215s. Also, you seem to be making harsh judgements which is ok imo because everyone has their opinions and this is a message board, but why don't you post with your real name?

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Posted By: ty_cobb

Name as posted above. Have always posted as ty_cobb
since the Full Count Board days, always available
by email, nothing to hide, 25 year T-card collector,
T215 collector (and more friendly in person!)

Glen V asserted there were a lot of reasons not to collect
Pirate T215, I thought I have presented some reasons
why it is collectible. One was that its perceived as
a foreign issue. I merely present that in my study of this 'foreign' issue I was able to establish the UK printers that printed their tobacco cards. Perhaps
with further work it could be established who the US
printers are.

Glen V is right in that I do perceive more monetary
emphasis on the cardboard, than perhaps a collector
like Frank Nagy, or Sir Edgar Wharton-Tigar, who I
perceive as valuing research and study more (so do I).

Obviously people care about what they collect so I
am not minimizing your collecting efforts. I am
suggesting there are other ways to collect/research.
It is only my opinion that I see more emphasis on card acquisition than other aspects of the hobby.

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Posted By: identify7

I think that you will encounter a high percentage of collectors who will agree that the primary emphasis is on acquisition rather than research and other aspects of the hobby. However, I do not characterize that status as a negative. I feel that it simply is a reflection of personal preferences.

Some choose to collect items which require a high degree of original thinking and fundamental determinations. These "some" are in the minority. Others perform research because of various interests, many of which have more to do with the sport than the hobby. But I view the collective thrust of those who prefer to inquire and determine, coupled with those who simply prefer to acquire as the driving force of the hobby prices.

Because of this joint driving force, imo, many of the cards which we continue to see re-entering the hobby will continue to be re-discovered, "found", and enjoyed by comparitively new collectors as well as old timers.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I started this thread and I just thought the pirate dude on the back was kinda cool, especially since I hadn't seen one before.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Some people take a scholarly approach to collecting (I like to think I am one of them). I am fascinated with the how and the why of card manufacture and collecting, which is probably why I chase printing freaks. That's my preference. I certainly don't see anything wrong with someone who doesn't take that approach and would never denigrate them on that basis. Give me someone who appreciates the cards, the history, the game or the players--anything that creates a passion for collecting--and I am down with it. The only people I have problems with as hobbyists are those who don't care about anything except the $$ involved. Frankly, that kind of "collector" gets really tedious really fast.

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

Cobby33,

This ones for you...



This is about as close as I'll ever come to owning a T215.

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Posted By: zach

Scott-Thats a great piece...was it created by Pirate Tobacco, or was it just a normal clock painting to look like their advertising years after ? Either way it looks great !

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

There are no definitive marks on the clock that I can say for certain it was an advertising piece but thats what I believe it was.

Not that it dates back as far as the T215 issue but its not recent and its not something that someone just painted on recently either.

The clocks texture is that of a glazed ceramic piece and the clock, while it no longer works, has an older wind-up style mechanism.

If I had to guess, I'd say it was produced in maybe the 30s-50s?

I just bought it cause it looked cool and at least had some relation to a Baseball card issue.

Scott

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Posted By: Cobby33

Awesome! Thanks for sharing!

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Posted By: Anonymous

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Posted By: Cobby33

Is there a card in there somewhere?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

It is a British issue. Wills made some nice "American-style" tobacco cards in the teens but they are not US issues. I'd definitely consider the Pirate cards to be foreign issues and probably misclassified in the T section of the ACC. Edited to say: Here is one of their contemporaneous boxing cards with Wills and Scissors Cigarettes (no boxers in the Pirate brand):

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Posted By: Cobby33

This is what I found on eBay doing a "T215" search:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8732178616