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  #101  
Old 04-26-2017, 05:18 PM
Brent Huigens's Avatar
Brent Huigens Brent Huigens is offline
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Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson View Post
I thought the new hire turned out to be his wife???

Then again, maybe neither nor or either or...
I am indeed Brent's wife, Betsy; Brent and I jointly own and manage PWCC Auctions. I am not the person responsible for the day-to-day policing our bidding environment. We hired a full-time Customer Service Representative, Melody, who is responsible for answering phones, responding to our emails, and reviewing bidding and implementing PWCC policy. I assist Melody as needed and communicate our data to eBay for their action.

For those of you who have called our PWCC phone number, you have likely spoken to Melody.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
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  #102  
Old 04-26-2017, 05:20 PM
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Brent Huigens Brent Huigens is offline
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Originally Posted by Bored5000 View Post
Michael Jordan cards are usually a good place to find some shady bidders. I didn't even look through half the 473 Michael Jordan auctions that PWCC is running currently, and the number of auctions in which the high bidder and/or underbidder has double digit retractions is just overwhelming.

The following auctions are just a sample of the bidding going on with Michael Jordan cards, and this is why posters are at least skeptical of how serious the attempt is to stamp out the problem. It's not like there are one or two auctions (or 20) out of thousands is which a questionable bidder is flying under the radar.

Edd*e Sm*th




Here is a Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 15 retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 50,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/142348167708...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is another Jordan Star card in which the high bidder has 26 bid retractions in the past six months (and feedback of over 40,000):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/352029920968...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Here is a Jordan auction in which the top three bidders have 7,8 and 21 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...4AAOSw~CFY8Sk4

Jordan auction for a 1986 Fleer sticker in which the high bidder has 14 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Fleer-S...MAAOSwj25Y8COL

Another Jordan auction in which the bidder with 26 retractions from above is also winning:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...4AAOSww3tY7~6i

Another Jordan Star auction in which the underbidder and second underbidder have 15 and 14 retractions, respectively:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

A 1998 Jordan Flair Showcase card in which the high bidder has 11 bid retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Flair-S...wAAOSwGy5Y8SiC

Jordan Star card auction in which the underbidder is the previously mentioned account with 15 retraction in the past six months:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the high bidder is the previously listed account with 26 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction in which the account with 26 retractions is the high bidder. Not to be outdone, the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan auction in which the top two bidders have eight and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...EAAOSwj25Y8SlP

Jordan card on which the underbidder has 14 retractions in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-UD-Lege...QAAOSwB-1Y8Sm9

Another Jordan auction being won by the bidder with 26 retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Jordan card in which the earlier mentioned accounts with 14 and 15 retractions are the current top two bidders:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-Star-Ga...QAAOSwGy5Y8B-A

Jordan card being won by the account with 15 bid retractions:

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2047675.l2565

Another Jordan auction being won by our old friend with 26 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...kAAOSw3utY8SVB

Mr. 26 retractions is the underbidder on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-Topps-C...8AAOSwCWFY8Sc2

The account with 15 retractions is again winning this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1985-86-Star...i:401307987090

Our man with 26 retractions is on top again in this Jordan auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Fleer-B...cAAOSwc49Y8CIe

The 26-retraction account again leads the way on this Jordan card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Ultra-S...8AAOSwTM5Y8SVZ

Jordan auction in which the underbidder has 27 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-Exquisi...UAAOSw~CFY8SvG

Another Jordan Star card in which the account with 26 retractions is on top:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...cAAOSwnF9Y7~6N

Yet again, the 26 retractions account is the high bidder:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Star-MJ...AAAOSw03lY7~9H

This Jordan auction has an underbidder with 21 bid retraction in the past six months:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...oAAOSwmgJY8SlQ

Jordan card in which the top two bidders have 13 and 21 retractions:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-UD-MJ-M...i:401308459405
Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
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  #103  
Old 04-26-2017, 05:41 PM
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irv irv is offline
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Originally Posted by Brent Huigens View Post
Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
What I don't understand is, how can a regular collector get this info quite easily but it takes you, a big seller on E-Bay, to rely on feedback in order to do the right thing?
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  #104  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:23 PM
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slidekellyslide slidekellyslide is offline
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What I don't understand is, how can a regular collector get this info quite easily but it takes you, a big seller on E-Bay, to rely on feedback in order to do the right thing?
Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.
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  #105  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.
Fair enough, and understood.
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  #106  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:27 PM
PhillipAbbott79 PhillipAbbott79 is offline
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.
Even if it was your full time job to do so? You can get any kid off the internet for 9 bucks an hour to police this stuff. You could outsource it to India, for 3 dollars an hour if you are that hard up for cash.

It is a zero skill job. I know for a fact I could find someone for 3.00 an hour within 1 day time.
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  #107  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:32 PM
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Even if it was your full time job to do so? You can get any kid off the internet for 9 bucks an hour to police this stuff. You could outsource it to India, for 3 dollars an hour if you are that hard up for cash.

It is a zero skill job. I know for a fact I could find someone for 3.00 an hour within 1 day time.
Kinda of what I was wondering/thinking?
I mean, have a hired person check bids regularly, ban/give the boot to those with over 10 or 25 retractions, or whatever the new number is, and be done with them.
Once weeded out, it wouldn't be that hard of a job, as far as I know, to keep up with, imo.
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  #108  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:33 PM
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If I was them and wanted to put an end to this, I would sort by "number of bids" after two days into the auction. All 25 of those bump bids to get the item on the "HOT LIST" would be eliminated, and the consignors (err, um, bidders) of those items would be blacklisted from consigning with me. And then I'd check their retraction history. And then I'd go out of business due to lack of consignors and blocked bidders. So I can see why they're slow-rolling this as long as they can.
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  #109  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
Probably because they have a massive number of listings going at the same time. I usually have only 300 or so auctions going at once and it would be impossible for me to monitor every single bidder for their retraction history. The only time I ever look at a bidders history is when they have actually retracted a bid. It would be very easy for ebay to allow sellers to block serial bid retractors but ebay doesn't want that to happen.
From my understanding from Betsys posts is they have someone to do this job. Maybe they are just really bad at it.
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  #110  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PhillipAbbott79 View Post
Even if it was your full time job to do so? You can get any kid off the internet for 9 bucks an hour to police this stuff. You could outsource it to India, for 3 dollars an hour if you are that hard up for cash.

It is a zero skill job. I know for a fact I could find someone for 3.00 an hour within 1 day time.
I would think it would be easier and cheaper in the long run for PWCC to have someone design a program to monitor their bidders. People have made apps that let you know who unfriends/unfollows you on facebook, it can't be much harder to program than that.
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  #111  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:45 PM
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From my understanding from Betsys posts is they have someone to do this job. Maybe they are just really bad at it.
I wonder why she/they/them are not responding? They have been on line for a while now?
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  #112  
Old 04-26-2017, 06:47 PM
CMIZ5290 CMIZ5290 is offline
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Originally Posted by D.P.Johnson View Post
I thought the new hire turned out to be his wife???

Then again, maybe neither nor or either or...
Brent and his wife have worked together for many years. You should not turn this into something otherwise.....

Last edited by CMIZ5290; 04-26-2017 at 06:50 PM.
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  #113  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:11 PM
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Brent Huigens Brent Huigens is offline
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Originally Posted by slidekellyslide View Post
I would think it would be easier and cheaper in the long run for PWCC to have someone design a program to monitor their bidders. People have made apps that let you know who unfriends/unfollows you on facebook, it can't be much harder to program than that.
Great suggestion - it is actually something we are having our software developer explore through the eBay API. Although it is easier said than done because of the kind of data that eBay makes available through their API, we are optimistic that something automated can be put in place.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
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  #114  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:13 PM
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Brent Huigens Brent Huigens is offline
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Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
From my understanding from Betsys posts is they have someone to do this job. Maybe they are just really bad at it.
Based on feedback from this thread, we will continue to increase the time we dedicate to checking bidders, and will continue to focus our efforts more on modern basketball. Thanks!

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
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  #115  
Old 04-27-2017, 04:57 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
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Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
I don't understand the hostility directed at PWCC for at least trying something. I have had real issues with them in the past unrelated to this issue, but it seems like some of you are expecting them to solve eBay weaknesses and cure a few diseases at the same time.

It may be a surprise to some of you, but PWCC can't tell eBay how to run their business. Yes, there is a problem with apparent shill bidding and BS bid retractions on some of their items. Maybe a not insignificant number of their items. There are consignors out there who will have friends and family, and maybe even themselves with alternative accounts, pump up the price of their auction items. This is an auction fact of life. Happens on eBay and happens everywhere else. Could happen at the church auction down the street. The guy bidding against you may have no interest other than helping someone else make more money. Deal with it. It's reality.

As far as bid retractions go, I have no evidence that they are worse for PWCC than any other major card seller. Nor do I have any belief that they are any worse than say some dude selling 10,000 hummels or 10,000 watches a month on ebay. Game playing will go on. If eBay allows people to retract bids with impunity, and PWCC reaches out to them to do something, I take this as both a tacit admission that there is a problem here that should be addressed and a positive sign that Brent thinks his company's credibility is taking a meaningful hit.

My final point is that I DO NOT find 5 bid retractions a day high for an outfit that often has 5,000+ items listed at a time. That might get 25,000+ bids in a day I'd guess. 5 or 10 or even 20 of those bids are retracted. I'd say at least 50% of those could have been genuine errors. Doesn't seem overly crazy to me.

Long winded way of saying that it seems many of you have real problems with eBay and blame PWCC for them.

If someone is retracting more than 5 times on PWCC in a 3 or 6 month period they should be barred from any PWCC auctions for 6 months. Although that probably wouldn't solve the problem anyway, as a person who wants to defraud others can just open a new account.
For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Steve. As a lawyer involved in litigation, I constantly see the worst in people--it often seems that whenever money is at stake, morals and ethical behavior get thrown by the wayside, and the more bucks that are at stake, the more the behavior tends towards "anything goes!" I used to get mad as an appellate lawyer when my insurance company retained opponent would write a brief twisting the facts and law and making as many misrepresentations as possible within the allotted page limit. But then I would cool down and simply dismantle these concoctions in my reply brief, and it almost always went badly for opposing counsel who engaged in such tactics at oral argument before a 3-judge panel. But back to the main point: wherever and whenever there is money to be made through unethical behavior, honor and integrity serve as no barrier at all to a substantial portion of the population. It appears to me that Brent is at least trying to do something to head some of this BS off, and as determined as the scammers are, it's like Ringo Starr said way back in 1971: "It don't come easy."

Best regards,

Larry

Last edited by ls7plus; 04-27-2017 at 04:58 PM.
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  #116  
Old 04-27-2017, 06:50 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.
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Last edited by Aquarian Sports Cards; 04-27-2017 at 06:52 PM.
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  #117  
Old 04-27-2017, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.
Just for comparison if you look through your own listings do your bidders have that type of bid retraction rate? I would guess they don't but am curious.
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  #118  
Old 04-27-2017, 07:34 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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I run very few auctions anymore, so not a great basis for comparison. That being said, I was more pointing out the progress within his auctions. 6 months ago the numbers would've looked nothing like what I discovered. Again I think there were 4 bidders out of about 48 that I checked that had ANY retractions and only one of those had more than 3. These were the top bidders on the most expensive items he has going.
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  #119  
Old 04-27-2017, 10:15 PM
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Brent,

Thank you for the monthly checks that ALWAYS arrive on time and for the crazy prices you get on some of my items!

I have NEVER been withheld funds on ANY item I have ever sent. I guarantee you that some of my items were not paid for since I've been consigning for 2 years now but I have been paid for EVERY item ALWAYS.

Thanks Brent!

Peace, Mike
This nicely summarizes the issue presented here, and on the other PWCC thread. Crazy prices are paid and that's all that matters. How? No worries. Doesn't matter how. Doesn't matter if its fraud. For those sales that are, shall we say, less than on the up and up, you can say exactly the same thing that an honest seller would say and unless you do a Sherlock Holmes job, no one is the wiser. And some shill of the seller can come on here and solemnly proclaim how on the up and up it was and then be all indignant when people call bullshit. Right. I get it.

I seldom buy anything on eBay anymore, and these two threads make me question whether I should even bother trying to buy anything ever again. What a shit show. I hope that all the principals involved in this sad debacle experience the karma that they very richly deserve.

Last edited by Kenny Cole; 04-27-2017 at 10:31 PM.
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  #120  
Old 04-28-2017, 02:32 AM
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This nicely summarizes the issue presented here, and on the other PWCC thread. Crazy prices are paid and that's all that matters. How? No worries. Doesn't matter how. Doesn't matter if its fraud. For those sales that are, shall we say, less than on the up and up, you can say exactly the same thing that an honest seller would say and unless you do a Sherlock Holmes job, no one is the wiser. And some shill of the seller can come on here and solemnly proclaim how on the up and up it was and then be all indignant when people call bullshit. Right. I get it.

I seldom buy anything on eBay anymore, and these two threads make me question whether I should even bother trying to buy anything ever again. What a shit show. I hope that all the principals involved in this sad debacle experience the karma that they very richly deserve.
Well said and right on point.
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  #121  
Old 04-28-2017, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Brent Huigens View Post
Thank you most sincerely for sending this to us. We placed blocks on 12 user IDs following this message (many of the problematic bidders from the multiple listings were the same user ID).

As always, until eBay allows us to filter bidders by defects like bid retraction history, assistance from the community in identifying bidders in violation of our policy is greatly appreciated.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
Thank you.
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  #122  
Old 04-28-2017, 04:17 AM
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Bored5000 Bored5000 is offline
Eddie S.
Eddie Smi.th
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Fleetwood, Pa.
Posts: 1,265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards View Post
FWIW I just sorted all their listings by "Rookie" and Highest Price. Went through the first dozen or so and was pleasantly surprised to see almost no retractions. Worst was 6 (which is still concerning) but I checked the top 5 bidders (not bids, but distinct bidders) of each auction and the vast majority were zero, with a couple of 2's and 3's and the one 6. I know it's fashionable to bash PWCC, but this does look like improvement to me.

PS. Brent, until you can pull the data from ebay directly sorting by highest price or number of bids and then examining bid histories would be more productive then random, or trying to focus on one type of card.
When I was looking at the Jordan listings, I put his name in into the search of PWCC auctions, then sorted by most bids. I expected to find a couple auctions here and there that looked a bit shady, but was a bit surprised when I really looked at how rampant the retractions/shilling was.

Last edited by Bored5000; 04-28-2017 at 04:18 AM.
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