Industry participants' response to scandal so far -- report card

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

SGC is being investigated by the FBI? Are they aware of this?

Maybe it is a double secret investigation, has to be a secret if their lawyer doesn't know about it.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The way to try to restore confidence would be by telling the public what they are doing to restore that trust, not secret payments with an NDA.

Oh my bad. I thought you suggested that they were making secret payments with an NDA. And how is a payment secret? Like it just ends up in your account without anyone telling you it’s coming?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Oh my bad. I thought you suggested that they were making secret payments with an NDA. And how is a payment secret? Like it just ends up in your account without anyone telling you it’s coming?

No I was saying it would make no sense to do that if they wanted to restore trust, and a few posts before I pointed out there were no NDAs because a guy had just posted about a PWCC refund and did not mention an NDA.

I guess I was using secret payment in the sense of not known to or knowable by the public, not hidden from the recipient, although maybe not the best wording.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No I was saying it would make no sense to do that if they wanted to restore trust, and a few posts before I pointed out there were no NDAs because a guy had just posted about a PWCC refund and did not mention an NDA.

I guess I was using secret payment in the sense of not known to or knowable by the public, not hidden from the recipient, although maybe not the best wording.

I hear you. But without an NDA recipients coukd happily and publicly announce their good fortune at receiving refunds. And the first refund sent out by PWCC or Beckett oe PSA is one more than Mastro et al. ever paid out, even as sentencing was upon them and they had a reason to try to look good for the judge. Every dollar paid by the Mastro gang and their coconspirators had to be dragged out of them via civil litigation or a threat to sue.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If someone is defrauded and their trust abused then reimbursed is that good fortune or just what they are entitled to, I might quibble with the language although I recognize the comparison.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If someone is defrauded and their trust abused then reimbursed is that good fortune or just what they are entitled to, I might quibble with the language although I recognize the comparison.

In this hobby? Look around you. It’s a miracle.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

In this hobby? Look around you. It’s a miracle.

Go tell it on the mountain!!

[frankbmd]

I accept secret payments 24/7.

No questions asked.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'm not quite Nostradamus, but I predict SGC will also get an F.

Sgc has been called out for their auto debacle. F


When I inquired with Tyler about a refund of an obvious forgery, with before and after photos, he wrote "since forgery Is a federal offense, you would need to seek restitution from the FBI" to paraphrase the rest; While you are at it, crack the card out and send us the flip, we will reimburse the grading fee.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Frank A

But when they found out, they stopped authenticating auto's. Do you thin PSA will stop authenticating Cards?

no, but they are so bad at it or corrupt that they should. Very piss poor company.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by BLongley

SGC also bumped some of Gary’s biggest profits with the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson’s... they definitely have a lower quantity discovered thus far, but they aren’t really any better.

65k bump on a 1914 Joe Jackson just posted as well

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

65k bump on a 1914 Joe Jackson just posted as well

Given the price disparity in the holders, I am wondering if they go to SGC only for cards PSA has actually caught and rejected?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Given the price disparity in the holders, I am wondering if they go to SGC only for cards PSA has actually caught and rejected?

I have to think so. But then again, they bought cards from their OWN auctions, altered them, and resold through their OWN auctions. Guess they thought people wouldn't catch on

[661fish]

So should we ALL go back to the old days when we graded our own cards?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I have to think so. But then again, they bought cards from their OWN auctions, altered them, and resold through their OWN auctions. Guess they thought people wouldn't catch on

People like this sometimes have a misplaced sense of their own invulnerability.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

People like this sometimes have a misplaced sense of their own invulnerability.

Agree Peter. In light of all this awful stuff this year’s National will tell a good bit to me where people stand. We absolutely detest and abhor all these...how many others are slime balls and may think they can get their bad cards passed both companies...how many people don’t know or care?? how many people continue to think psa will succeed and still continue to bring them the most money for their cards in the near future.
The lines at PSA and SGC will dictate the future of how these companies are going to deal with this. Will PSA still have the stronghold ? Will be protest and demand buy backs ect.. Will lines be substantially smaller or the same or hell crazier things have happened larger?

[661fish]

I honestly feel that PSA will still have long lines. Just like PWCC will still have people doing buisness with them. They may feel the effect for a minute.

[JohnP0621]

Originally Posted by Frank A

For what reason? Or are you just pissed because they are clean.

Check out the other thread that's going on about
SGC crossing over PSA cards and bumping them a few grades and than tell me how clean they are (Cracker Jack Joe Jackson from PSA 2 to SGC 5 after altering )T206 Cobb etc. Just Saying !

John P

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

Check out the other thread that's going on about
SGC crossing over PSA cards and bumping them a few grades and than tell me how clean they are (Cracker Jack Joe Jackson from PSA 2 to SGC 5 after altering )T206 Cobb etc. Just Saying !

John P

So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?

Probably the same ratio in which they were submitted.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Probably the same ratio in which they were submitted.

I'm also guessing it's pretty close to that.

[JohnP0621]

Originally Posted by bnorth

So what is the PSA to SGC ratio on bad cards about 2000 to 1?

Don't know the Ratio but SGC is not So Clean in all of this mess.Also the Ratio of fake autos that SGC Authenticated is pretty high.
I was only responded to the poster that said SGC was Clean.i Believe they are not .

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by JohnP0621

Don't know the Ratio but SGC is not So Clean in all of this mess.Also the Ratio of fake autos that SGC Authenticated is pretty high.
I was only responded to the poster that said SGC was Clean.i Believe they are not .

I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.

[JohnP0621]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.

Believe me I am not happy about any of this. SGC ,PSA, Beckett etc . Just calling it like it is .

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I talk as much smack as everyone but Ted on how completely incompetent SGC was on autographs.

I wasn't trying to single you out, your post just fit my reply(agenda) about how PSA is WAY worse on grading cards. Seems to me a some are a little too happy to see the few(so far) bad SGC cards show up.

In my estimation, no one should be "happy" that any of the TPGers are as bad at their jobs as the cards outed seem to indicate they are. Disappointed? Yes. Outraged? Maybe, Feel like their trust was betrayed and that they absolutely didn't get what they were promised? OK. People and companies are going to make mistakes. That's inevitable. Its how they respond that matters IMO. That's where the rubber meets the road. Thus far, I have seen nothing that gives me any assurance whatsoever that any of the TPGers are willing to step up and clean up their mess. I guess time will tell, but I am sure not holding my breath.

BTW, when I say "mistake," I am not including PWCC. Mistake implies an accident. As best as I can tell, what PWCC did was not accidental. I sincerely hope that PWCC goes down in flames and that its principals spend time in prison.

[Republicaninmass]

Thanks Ben! Trying to insult them the best I know how.

I'm not sure what they have done with the other owners of the forged cards. My guess is the auction house reimbursed them, and SGC told the auction houses to go to the FBI, or caved due to the business they send.

[AddieJoss]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I hear you. But without an NDA recipients coukd happily and publicly announce their good fortune at receiving refunds. And the first refund sent out by PWCC or Beckett oe PSA is one more than Mastro et al. ever paid out, even as sentencing was upon them and they had a reason to try to look good for the judge. Every dollar paid by the Mastro gang and their coconspirators had to be dragged out of them via civil litigation or a threat to sue.

I’m not sure about everyone else. I received 8k refund from pwcc. It even covers my initial shipping charges. The OP is rating the “response” only? That is a good response from my perspective. Not glad it happened but glad to get 8k for the cards. I was not asked ever about a Signing a non disclosure or anything of the like.

Cory Weiser

[HercDriver]

Where's VCP's grade? I sort of quit following the posts due to work and life getting in the way. The initial posts all wanted to fry Bobby, but I thought that was jumping the gun a bit. I haven't seen anything else about that lately, so I'm assuming he's cleared? And apologies issued publicly by those that wanted to skewer him? Maybe I'll get a beer and try to catch up...

Cheers,
Geno

[vintagetoppsguy]

This talk about SGC authention is ridiculous. How did we go from card doctoring to autograph authentication? But ok, I'll play too. Fine, SGC authenticators are incompetent. But the one thing I can say is at least the "autographs" were wet ink. But how STUPID do you have to be to authenticate a fascimilie autograph?


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=Cobb

[Republicaninmass]

Maybe because it's a response to their "guarantee" which guarantees nothing?

F


F



F

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

This talk about SGC authention is ridiculous. How did we go from card doctoring to autograph authentication? But ok, I'll play too. Fine, SGC authenticators are incompetent. But the one thing I can say is at least the "autographs" were wet ink. But how STUPID do you have to be to authenticate a fascimilie autograph?


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=Cobb

I remember reading where Spence authenticated a facsimile Churchill autograph on a form letter.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I remember reading where Spence authenticated a facsimile Churchill autograph on a form letter.

I'd never heard that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I trust some on this board way more than any TPG.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I try not to puff up my friends, and we're hijacking a little. But I gotta say if you haven't worked with Mike Root who started CAS. You are missing out. Not only does he do a great job, but he's willing to take time to explain things. He's not hoarding his knowledge some some weird cult. He gladly tells you what he's looking for if you have questions. He's also happy to call on other's expertise instead of just taking a guess. He's got some great guys on his side.

My favorite story is a collection I was bringing to auction. The collection was amassed in two ways. The owner had serious health issues and was bedridden as a fairly young man for almost two years. He did THOUSANDS of TTM requests. When his health started to come around he started getting things done in person.

Without any sorting, or explanation Mike went through the collection and literally rejected only TTM pieces. Out of the hundreds of in person autographs not one failed. It's not necessarily that he's perfect, who is? But I was mightily impressed.

[36GoudeyMan]

Scott -- CAS seems at first to be a reputable authenticator, but when you look at the "team" behind Root, you find Herman Darvick. That raises HUGE red flags with me (from my non-sports autograph collecting hobby days). This might be a source point (or sore point), from Steve Koschal. I don't know all the intrigue, or if Koschal is right or wrong, but this worries me a lot about CAS, FWIW.

http://autographplanet.com/forum/her...fuel-the-autog

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'd never heard that, but I wouldn't be surprised. I trust some on this board way more than any TPG.

Leon prefers no links to this site but here is the description.

39. The REA-Winston Churchill JSA-Authenticated Facsimile Letter-

This facsimile letter sent out by Winston Churchill was authenticated by JSA as an authentic handwritten document by the British Prime Minister. JSA noted the pen pressure and other characteristics they examined which revealed the document was genuine. But the document was a mass-produced facsimile sent out to many recipients and exhibited no evidience of ink or pen ever being applied to the paper. The bogus offering was later pulled from REA’s Spring 2013 sale after JSA’s blunder was exposed.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I have to think so. But then again, they bought cards from their OWN auctions, altered them, and resold through their OWN auctions. Guess they thought people wouldn't catch on

and no lawsuits..... because evidently everyone is waiting for the PSA review process or are being paid off and happy

Also nobody submits to PSA anymore or will wait in line due to all of these major problems..

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

and no lawsuits..... because evidently everyone is waiting for the PSA review process or are being paid off and happy

Also nobody submits to PSA anymore or will wait in line due to all of these major problems..

With all this no lawsuit posts are you begging for work?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

and no lawsuits..... because evidently everyone is waiting for the PSA review process or are being paid off and happy

Also nobody submits to PSA anymore or will wait in line due to all of these major problems..

An inquiring mind also may ponder whether or not other card doctors have been doing this.....not as bold and or arrogant to the fact of doing it in the same auction house while buying using same eBay account....leads me to believe other guys may have been doing this more inconspicuously...if past behavior has never been held accountable what’s to lead anyone to believe it would to them...when there are zero consequences for ones behavior you get more of the same behavior...
We all live in a Wild West Industry That has always been loaded with this....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

With all this no lawsuit posts are you begging for work?

Appears to be no work. Everyone is happy it appears..or willing to wait 3 months or years for PSA to review their card because what choice do they have..

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Appears to be no work. Everyone is happy it appears..or willing to wait 3 months or years for PSA to review their card because what choice to they have..

Speak for yourself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

An inquiring mind also may ponder whether or not other card doctors have been doing this.....not as bold and or arrogant to the fact of doing it in the same auction house while buying using same eBay account....leads me to believe other guys may have been doing this more inconspicuously...if past behavior has never been held accountable what’s to lead anyone to believe it would to them...when there are zero consequences for ones behavior you get more of the same behavior

There are MANY card doctors.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Speak for yourself.

talk is cheap, when there are actual lawsuits, there will be something to really discuss.... everyone can say all the witty things they want back and forth but its just talk until theres an actual lawsuit.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are MANY card doctors.

Agree and Almost Zero Peter have been held accountable...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

talk is cheap, when there are actual lawsuits, there will be something to really discuss.... everyone can say all the witty things they want back and forth but its just talk until theres an actual lawsuit.

Countless claims, even substantial ones, get resolved every day without an actual lawsuit. Do you genuinely not know that?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by 36GoudeyMan

Scott -- CAS seems at first to be a reputable authenticator, but when you look at the "team" behind Root, you find Herman Darvick. That raises HUGE red flags with me (from my non-sports autograph collecting hobby days). This might be a source point (or sore point), from Steve Koschal. I don't know all the intrigue, or if Koschal is right or wrong, but this worries me a lot about CAS, FWIW.

http://autographplanet.com/forum/her...fuel-the-autog

Don't know the specifics of that particular guy, I just know he has some that are very well-respected in the autograph world. Also they are not guys who work for Mike every day, they are consultants if he has questions. I mainly liked the idea that Mike doesn't pretend to know everything like some autograph guys do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Agree and Almost Zero Peter have been held accountable...

Yup. The train just keeps on rolling. Bad people profit and good people (most anyhow) do nothing. We'll see if the recent revelations which are so in your face and shocking and undeniable bring about any change.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Countless claims, even substantial ones, get resolved every day without an actual lawsuit. Do you genuinely not know that?

I'm not convinced he's a lawyer. No one could be this clueless, even the shittiest slip and fall lawyer.

The average value of a trimmed card in this mess is probably $2000. Let's say it's $5000. Jake, do you think people are going to run to sue over that amount of money? Or will they try like hell to do anything they can to avoid paying a lawyer more money than the value of the card they're suing over? Even the guy with the trimmed PSA 10 Musial didn't sue immediately. He's clearly trying to get his money back without the need for costly, lengthy litigation.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I'm not convinced he's a lawyer. No one could be this clueless, even the shittiest slip and fall lawyer.

The average value of a trimmed card in this mess is probably $2000. Let's say it's $5000. Jake, do you think people are going to run to sue over that amount of money? Or will they try like hell to do anything they can to avoid paying a lawyer more money than the value of the card they're suing over? Even the guy with the trimmed PSA 10 Musial didn't sue immediately. He's clearly trying to get his money back without the need for costly, lengthy litigation.

Not to mention that most people don't live in California so they would have to contemplate bringing out of state litigation.

But I have a 2K card that's been identified as possibly trimmed and I'm REALLY pissed so I am going to find a lawyer who practices in Orange County, and pay him or her whatever it takes to file and pursue a lawsuit RIGHT NOW, even though it's premature because PSA hasn't reviewed the card yet or said no on their guarantee. I am sure the lawyer can get around that. And if I have to travel to California to testify at trial, so be it, damn it. That 2K card is THAT important to me.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Countless claims, even substantial ones, get resolved every day without an actual lawsuit. Do you genuinely not know that?

right and if zero lawsuits then everyone is happy...seems like all of the at fault people are taking care of everything right?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not to mention that most people don't live in California so they would have to contemplate bringing out of state litigation.

But I have a 2K card that's been identified as possibly trimmed and I'm REALLY pissed so I am going to find a lawyer who practices in Orange County, and pay him or her whatever it takes to file and pursue a lawsuit RIGHT NOW, even though it's premature because PSA hasn't reviewed the card yet or said no on their guarantee. I am sure the lawyer can get around that. And if I have to travel to California to testify at trial, so be it, damn it. That 2K card is THAT important to me.

Yeah so the total people that are pissed off adds up to 2k...the guy with the 60k loss isnt pissed off. People in america never sue but why would they if they are willing to wait 5 years for review because as you said 'what choice to they have' or apparently everyone is being paid back on the guarantee...

why all this talk if everyone is satisfied..