Relative rarity of Cobb SOV 460 to BL 460, DRUM, LENOX, UZIT ?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The T206 red Cobb is found with as many as 25 different backs (including the 1910 COUPON).

This SOVEREIGN 460 Cobb has to be one of the toughest of all of them. Because, after almost
4 years of searching for this card to complete my all-SOVEREIGN set, I finally acquired it.
And, in my 32 years of collecting BB cards, I know of only 4 of these Cobb cards.







This Cobb is very, very RARE. It may very well be more scarce than the Cobb with the Ty Cobb
Smoking Tobacco back. There are only 14 of the Ty Cobb backs known.
There are only 4 of these SOVEREIGN 460 Cobb cards, that I am aware of. Let's get some POP
report data on this card. I'm curious as to how many more than four have been confirmed ?

This was a PSA graded card when I got it....and, since it is now in my collection, I have freed it
from its plastic capsule. Mr. Cobb can now breath again

I appreciate any further responses regarding this particular Cobb.


Also, how rare is this Red Cobb with respect to it's Broad Leaf 460, Drum, Lenox and Uzit versions ?


T-Rex TED

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Posted By: robert a

Hi Ted,

Seems to me all Sovereign 460 cards are tough.

I looked back on all 900+ T206 cards I've had and only two are there. Gandil and Tinker Bat On.

How many Sovereign 460 cards do you have in your set?

Rob

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Posted By: barry arnold

congratulations,Ted!
I'm glad you were able to obtain the Cobb 460 Sov. after searching so long.
It certainly is a rarity.
I do think Robert is correct in underscoring the scarcity of the Sov.460 as i only have a couple out of my 520 different 206s---reminds me a bit of the
scarcity of EPDGs that we discovered some 4+ years ago.
I don't think this scarcity of the Sov. 460 matches the rarity of the
Cobb 460 sov., however.

great work!
best,

barry

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Posted By: mark s.

on finally acquiring the cobb, AND completing your sovereign 460 subset!
did i have anything to do with motivating your search, and subsequent success?
(that last ebay "460" listing sure disappeared in a hurry!)
you recently mentioned TWO that you were aware of...
have you uncovered two MORE (including yours)?
since neither psa nor sgc specifically designates the series, we will have to rely upon board members for a more accurate pop report...

any more sightings of this combination that ted is not already aware of?

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks guys....the 46 (of 48) cards in the 460-only Series are sort of tough to find with
Sovereign 460 backs. However, the 6 super-prints are the real tough ones and this Cobb
is absolutely the toughest.



ROBERT.....I think there are 404 different cards in my complete Sovereign set. And, when
you add the 460 versions of the 6 super-prints, it totals 410 cards.
There are a lot of No Prints in the 350 Series and of course no Southern Leaguers.
I will post the exact numbers with respect to the 150-360-460 series in my next post later
today, if you are interested.

MARK.....One more Cobb was brought to my attention, recently. And, thanks for your help,
I really appreciate it.

I know of one Net54 member that has one of these Cobb's. Perhaps, a few more will res-
pond with their Sovereign 460 Cobb's. Hey guys and gals show or tell us of your Red Cobb's ?


Thanks again,

TED Z

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Posted By: JB

Congrats...........

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

sovereign 460s I currantly own



1.George Bell-follow through

2.Al Bridwell-Cap

3.Howie Camnitz-hands above

4.Hal Chase-trophy

5.Larry Doyle-portrait

6.Russ Ford

7.Harry Howell-hands at waist

8.Tom Needham

9.Billy Payne

10.Lee Tannehill

11.Zack Wheat

12.Rube Marquard-pitch

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm still waiting for the POP report on this SOVEREIGN 460 card.

I realize it will virtually be impossible to obtain this info from PSA....but, SGC should have this data.

Usually you guys are quick to report the POP data on any given card....what seems to be the problem on this one ?


T-Rex TED

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

These are the 52 Subjects that are found with the SOVEREIGN 460 back......

460-only Series (46 cards)

Abbaticcio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (arms in air)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Chance (bat)
Chase (Trophy)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Doyle (portrait)
Duffy
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand at waist)
Hummel
Lake (ball in hand)
Latham
Marquard (throwing)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove)
Merkle (throwing)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (bat)
Schulte (back view)
Seymour (portrait)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (follow thru)
Tinker (bat on)
Wheat
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


And, the 6 super-prints......

Chance (yellow portrait)
Chase (blue portrait)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Mathewson (dark cap)


NO PRINTS......

Kleinow (Boston)
Smith (Boston & Chicago)


TED Z

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Posted By: Red

Neither PSA or SGC breaks it down to the series.
PSA shows 12 that have been labeled Sovereign.
There are more that would be in holders simply labeled T206 with no mention on the type of bat. How many with 460 would not be known without finding the remaining 11.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SGC dates the T206's by year....a "460" backed T206 is labelled "1911"


TED Z

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Posted By: mark s.

ted-
here is the information from sgc's pop report...
T206 1911 Baseball TY COBB Sovereign Cigarettes: one (10) and one (50)...
total of TWO!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You're the man......

I know of the SGC 50 card.....so, that makes it only 5 known Sovereign 460 Cobb's.

Let's see if we can get any responses regarding this Cobb from the Net54 audience.

As I have said, it is very rare and I do not expect too many responses. However, if
you have this Cobb....show or tells us about it ?

I'm saying this Cobb is as scarce (if not more scarce) than the Ty Cobb back card !

Prove me wrong ? ?


Thanks,

TED Z

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Posted By: Richard

Ted - there are a lot of Cobb Red Portraits that are as scarce or scarcer than the Cobb back.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

RICHARD

Very good point....and, let's see here how this SOVEREIGN 460 Cobb compares wih it's BROAD LEAF 460, or DRUM,
or LENOX, or UZIT versions ?

So far, we have accounted for 5 red Cobb's with the Sovereign 460 back. Let's start with the POP reports of the
Red Cobb with......

BROAD LEAF 460

DRUM

LENOX

UZIT


Note....since the Red Cobb is one of the 6 super-prints it is not found with the American Beauty 460 back, and I
don't think it exists with the Red HINDU back.

Net54er's, let's have your inputs on what could turn out to be a very interesting survey ?


Thanks Richard for making this point,

TED Z

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Posted By: Marc S.

and sales, haven't we seen one BL 460, two Drums and three Uzits?

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Posted By: Donavon Arabie

Ted,

I can say with certainty that the Cobb Red Portrait with a Red Hindu back does indeed exist.

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Posted By: leon

Donavon is correct. A Red Portrait Red Hindu Cobby will be in the next REA auction. It is the only known one, from my understanding.

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Posted By: Jim Rivera

This really isn't a rule but I kinda follow this.

T206s are so plentiful, if you can account for 5 of a certain front/back combo, there are probably at least that many more that you don't know about and probably never will.

Example -I thought I had the only known Overall/Uzit and when I got to view a hobby veterans collection he had the same combo. Also I have only seen one Slagle / Tolstoi and he also had that combo.

So you can guarantee there are more out there than you can account for.

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Posted By: Eric Pugh

Ted, awesome card - congrats. Not to split hairs, but you state there are 14 cobb/cobb cards; Mastro and i believe REA both claim 12 is the known number. Are you sure about that 14? I think the recognized known number is actually 12.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Correct me if my recollection is off....but, the original find of the Ty Cobb back cards was 12. Then, I heard
that a 13th card had surfaced.

And, the 14th card is Senator Russell's T-card collection that is on display at the Univ. of Georgia. This Ty
Cobb card was discovered in his original collection....he collected these cards as a teenager in 1910-1911.


TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

There were six known Ty Cobb backs when Rob Lifson made his famous find of five more in 1997. One additional copy was found a few years later (I believe in Kentucky, but could be wrong in my memory of the location), bringing the total to 12. When Nagy's example came to market, some people started counting it as the 13th, but I can't imagine it was not counted by Rob among the six known back in 1997. Obviously Nagy and his collection would have been well-known in the hobby. So if the Russell copy was also not one of the pre-1997 six known, then the total would be 13.
JimB

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Posted By: Scott B.

t206 museum lists Sov 460 rarer than Hindu, AB 460 but not as rare as CB, BF 350 etc.


1. Old Mill (Southern League - Double Overprints) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
2. Old Mill (Southern League - Overprint) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
3. Ty Cobb - Factory 33 - District 4 - State NC
4. Old Mill (Brown) - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
5. Broad Leaf - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
6. Lenox (Brown) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
7. Drum - Series 350- Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
8. Uzit - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
9. Hindu (Red) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
10. Piedmont - Series 350-460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
11. Blank Back
12. Lenox (Black) - Factory 30 - District 2 - State NY
13. Broad Leaf - Series 350 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
14. Carolina Brights - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
15. Sovereign - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA
16. Hindu (Brown) - Factory 649 - District 1 - State NY
17. American Beauty - Series 460 - Factory 42 - District 4 - State NC
18. Cycle - Series 460 - Factory 25 - District 2 - State VA

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks for correcting me guys regarding the red HINDU red Cobb. I'm not sure what I was thinking when I stated
to the contrary. At least I was correct in that same statement, that the Red Cobb (and the other 5 super-prints)
were never printed with American Beauty 460 backs.


TED Z

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Posted By: mark s.

are there any known red cobb BLANK BACKS?

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Posted By: Richard

Certainly these are all rarer than Cobb back:

BROAD LEAF 460

DRUM

BROWN LENOX

UZIT

RED HINDU

If you want to go outside of the T206 mix for other Red Portrait Cobbs, then these are additions to the list:

VICTORY

RED CROSS

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Posted By: Donavon Arabie

Leon,

That makes two Red Hindu back Cobbs. I do not know of the one coming up in REA's auction. I do, however, know of another which is owned by a friend. It has a minor spot of paper loss on the back (about half the size of a pencil eraser), but is otherwise in excellent condition. He refuses to send it in for grading, but I can vouch for it's authenticity. It was pulled from a scrapbook out of the New Orleans area back in the early 80's. I managed to get a T206 Tinker & a T213 McQuiilan-Pittsburgh from the scrapbook that after soaking were both graded PSA 4's. I hope this helps with the count. As mentioned previously, I'm sure there are more out there that we may never know about.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

If I understand your post....you are accounting for 4 red HINDU red Cobb's....is that correct ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The T206 museum list is pretty accurate in ranking the 46 cards in the 460-only Series.

However, that ranking does not reflect the 6 super-prints with Sovereign 460 backs. These 6 super-prints are
in a class apart from the 460-only cards.
In putting together my all-Sovereign set, I can tell you for a fact, that these 6 super-prints are much tougher
than the T206 museum ranking indicates. Here's my ongoing ranking of these 6 cards with Sovereign 460 backs:

Red Cobb..............Super tough

Evers (yellow)........Extremely tough

Chance (yellow).....very tough

Chase (blue)..........very tough

Chase (dark cap)....tough

Matty (dark cap)....tough


TED Z

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Posted By: Donavon Arabie

Ted,

No. I can only account for one. However, as Leon pointed out, there is another coming up for auction with REA. So...that makes two.

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Posted By: robert a

I know some of you will disagree, but I think there's something strange about comparing individual front/back combinations to the cobb/cobb back.

As everyone knows, the cobb/cobb back is so sought after that every known copy has been brought to the forefront of the hobby.

I'm sure if the sovereign 460 version was under the same microscope we'd see a LOT more of them. I don't think it matters how many are graded.

Most of the heavy back collectors that I communicate with don't grade their T206 cards.

The Cobb back is only found on a dozen or so cards altogether. It diminishes the true scarcity of those cards to compare them to one back that is found with several fronts.

I agree that it is fun to compare the different backs, but T206 has silently confused many with the different series on some of the backs.

Remember the thread a few years ago on SWEET CAP 350-460 SERIES 25? They're really tough and I'd love to see how many Red Cobb people have with that back.
But, nobody really cares about that back. It's not a different color or design.

Rob

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The Russell collection Ty Cobb back card is apart from any of the recent finds. It was in
his collection from "day one" (when he acquired as a teenager in 1910-1911).

And, regarding Frank Nagy's card. I don't think his Ty Cobb card is from any recent finds.
Some one here might prove me wrong on this; but, I think Frank acquired his a long time
ago. I purchased many vintage cards from Frank in the 1981-1994 era. We corresponded
a lot during those years; and, I was amazed at the extent of his collection and his know-
ledge of vintage sportscards.

So, I'm not sure I understand how you came up with 13 cards ?

This might sound as nit-picking; but, my count is 12 + Frank's card + Russell's card = 14

Best regards,

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK, for any Net54er's interested on expanding their T206 Cobb collections....I am displaying here all the possible SOVEREIGN backs
that the four Cobb's are found with.

Any other SOVEREIGN backs on these Cobb's are either repros or absolute FAKES.











TED Z

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Posted By: Red

Factory 42 Piedmont 460 would be a big jump in difficulty level too.

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Posted By: JimB

Ted,
My point is that if the Nagy example is not a new find (which I think we both agree it is not), then it was counted by Rob Lifson in 1997 when his find of 5 brought the total known to 11. There has been one additional example found since then (bringing the total known to 12). Then there is the Russell copy which may be newly known/accounted for in the the hobby in recent years, bringing the total to 13.

Counting the Nagy example on top of the six known in 1997 before the REA find would constitute double counting it since I believe his example was already counted among the six known. That is the only way to get to 14 IMHO.
JimB

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Posted By: Scott B.

Does anyone has the scan of the Russell Cobb back? I remember I read somewhere someone has at least 11 images of Cobb back in his image library. Would that be easier to track down the number of Cobb back by scans rather than tracking down by names (e.g. Nagy's Cobb, Russell's Cobb etc)

A side question, if Red Cobb with Sov 460 backs are rarer than Red Cobb with Cobb back, will anyone here willing to pay $60k for a Red Cobb with Sov 460 back???

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM B

I talked with Rob Lifson earlier today, and here is his accounting of the number of Ty Cobb
back cards. Initially there were 6 cards in the 1st find. Then Rob was offered 5 more which
brought it 11 cards.
Then the same person he got these 5 from came up with another one to make it 12 cards.

Rob confirmed what we thought regarding Frank Nagy's Cobb.....that it was independently
acquired many years ago.....bringing the total to 13 cards.
So, when we add Russell's card, the present total is 14 cards.


SCOTT B

I don't understand what the problem is with identifying these Ty Cobb cards by the person
who collected them ? Furthermore, it adds a human touch and a certain provenance to the
card.
What does a scan really tell us about a card (other than it's visuals). Besides, scans have
been known to be gimmicked-up to create a false impression.

Your are kidding about this....aren't you ?
" if Red Cobb with Sov 460 backs are rarer than Red Cobb with Cobb back, will anyone here
willing to pay $60k for a Red Cobb with Sov 460 back??? "


TED Z

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Go get 'em, Ted...

Rarity does not equal selling price or value.

Any N173 is less plentiful than a Wagner T206. Same for any T200 Premium. But the Wagner will sell for more.


For me, the Cobb w/ Cobb back isn't a T206, the front's different... The Cobb w/ Cobb back is definitely a desirable card. Seems the T206 Cobb red portrait with Sov 460 back is less plentiful than the Cobb w/ Cobb back cards, whatever they are.

So to me, it seems likely that the most difficult back of a T206 Cobb is the red portrait Sov 460.

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Posted By: Marc S.

I have never heard much of the Senator's collection. How is it that he seemingly stumbled upon all of the tough cards from T-206...Cobb/Cobb, Doyle Nat'l, etc. Doesn't it just seem odd, as such a comprehensive collection of rarities is relatively unparalleled from those collections that were put together 80-90 years ago?

Marc

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Posted By: Eric Pugh

regarding market pricing: heck, the shiny new 1 of 1's are rarer than the cobb/cobb back, but that does not change the fact that one is a museum piece and the other is well, not a museum piece.

i also get the feeling the next cobb/cobb that comes to auction will sell for a record price (50k+ for a "1", 100k+ for a "2"), and the one after that will set a new record, and then after that a new record, etc etc etc., similar to the recent Wagner price records year in and year out (proportionately speaking). Just my opinion of course, but i think the museum pieces will not be affected one iota by this depression we are entering.

Problem with the cobb/cobb pricing is that it's possible that not ONE comes to the market this year (unlike every other major card it seems including Wagner).

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I have researched into Senator Russell's collection, and it's actually not so unusual that he
happened to have the Joe Doyle error card and the Ty Cobb back card. I was fortunate in
that I bought a bunch of Russell's duplicate T206's several years ago. His Great-Granddau-
ghter was selling them.

What struck me about these T206's was that they were all Piedmont 350's. It turns out that
Russell was an avid BB fan and a smoker as a teenager in 1910 when he collected most of his
vast collection of Tobacco cards. Early in 1910 the 350 Series of T206's was available in the
Piedmont cigarette packs. We know that the Doyle error card was inserted in a few of the very
early Piedmont packs in 1910. So, the probability of Russell getting this card was really not that
unusual.
Now, for the Ty Cobb back card......Russell grew up in a little farming town just northwest of
Atlanta. It has recently come to our attention that the Ty Cobb (pipe) Smoking Tobacco was
reported in several newspapers in 1910. So, here again, the timing and the region were perfect
for Russell to have acquired this card in his youth.

Russell's T206 (near complete) set consists of 497 cards. No Magie, or Plank, or Wagner. Simply
because these cards were issued in 1909 (before he started collecting).

His collection also consists of many T210 (Old Mill) cards that were popular down South in 1910.


Hope this explanation helps you....you can see this collection at the Univ. Georgia.


TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

So why if Frank Nagy's Cobb back was acquired many years ago did Rob not count it among known examples in 1997 when he reported the total (including the find of 5) at 11?
JimB

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Posted By: Richard

"So to me, it seems likely that the most difficult back of a T206 Cobb is the red portrait Sov 460."

No, Frank.

The red portrait Cobb Sovereign 460 may be rarer than a "Ty Cobb" back, but all of these are rarer than a Sovereign 460:

BROAD LEAF 460

DRUM

BROWN LENOX

UZIT

RED HINDU

VICTORY

RED CROSS

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Richard, I understand your point and the problem with what I posted up there.

But neither Victory nor Red Cross are white border T206 tobacco cards. So
what you have is a bit lacking, too...

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Posted By: Richard

Sorry, you are right. Just cut and pasted from an above post.

If we were discussing all red portrait Ty Cobb cards in general, however, they would clearly make the list.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Don't forget the 1910 COUPON card of Cobb's red portrait.

Otherwise, referred to as a T213-1....but now, the secret is out....it really is a white border T206 card


TED Z

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Posted By: Richard

Ted - I don't think that the type 1 Coupon has a population, graded and ungraded, anywhere near that of Cobb back. As in many multiples higher.

It should not be included in the rarity discussion above, imho.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

What does "population" have to do with anything ?

This card should be included in this mix......

The Red Cobb portrait is the "signature" picture card of the American Lithographic Co. They printed this image on 25
different American Tobacco Co. (ATC) advertising backs of the T206 series. And, subsequently, in the following ATC
issues......

Coupon Type 2

Coupon Type 3

Red Cross

Victory








Did I leave out any other ATC issues that this image appears in ?



TED Z

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Posted By: dstudeba

Population, as in the number of cards, has everything to do with rarity which is this whole discussion. I agree with the posters above who say that there are probably many of these cards that we don't know about. I will add that there are probably Red Cobb Sovereign owners who aren't aware that they have this rarity. If I had one I wouldn't know the difference, whereas if I had a Cobb back I would know.

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Posted By: peter ullman

Is the red cobb portrait available in t215 pirate?