T207 population info sought

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Posted By: Tim N

PLEASE RESPOND DIRECTLY TO ME RATHER THAN TO THE BOARD.

Hi folks-- I've begun to compile a population survey on the T207 set, feeling that there's no good up-to-date info on it. I'm convinced through my own experience, and through conversations with fellow searchers, that a good number of cards usually called commons are much scarcer than the typical common. Also, some of the cards understood as relative scarcities are vastly tougher than others lumped into the same category. It will benefit all of us who love the set to know these things more accurately.

So I've begun surveying ebay and other sources. So far I've charted only about 500 cards total, so it's too soon to draw conclusions, but interesting patterns have already begun to emerge.

Can I ask you to give me any info you have on this subject? Send me a list of the T207s you currently have, or the ones you don't have -- whichever is easiest. If you have a store of duplicates, let me know which ones. I'll do the rest.

What's in it for you? I'm not doing this for money, but when I've surveyed a bunch more cards-- hopefully several thousand eventually-- I'll share the complete results with everyone who responds to my query and contributes something to the project.

A NOTE ON BACKS: I haven't been charting backs on Ebay since they often aren't shown, but I'd like to include backs in the project, so if you could break down what you have by back, that would be helpful too.

Thanks,

Tim Newcomb

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Here's a noble effort that deserves the attention of all T207 collectors - good luck, Tim. Maybe some of the few gurus will help shed light on this puzzling set. Even a T207-disparager (this means you, Runscott, and the folks at the SCD Catalog!) might find some interest in a detailed pop report...

For what it's worth, I had a conversation a few months ago with Bob Richardson, the man who "discovered" the true history of Irving Lewis a couple of decades ago, before Keith Olbermann wrote his informative SCD articles on the set. He told me it was a tough set, but the cards could still be found (er... some of us were apparently born too late). He completed it a long time ago, minus the Lewis.

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Posted By: leon

Although I am just a type collector I will be glad to help in any way I can. I think you and I are 2 of the most die hard "back" collectors out here. I can tell you that I am aware of 5 Red Cross backs, of which 4 have been known for a long time. I understand, from a reliable source, that there is a Red Cross Lowdermilk....but I have never seen it.....Let us know what we can do....I will also try to coerce Tbob and some others into helping.....good luck and let us know.....ps...how are those M101-4/5 backs coming along?

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Posted By: TBob

I have one card of every card in the set and collected it card by card so I have an idea as to rarity and scarceness. First off, the Wagner/Carrigan wrong backs do exist but are not a part of the set, being a printing error with no legitimate purpose other than for curiosity sake. There are other wrong backs out there, including Stovall and Tooley.
I think the factor of allure and popularity must be factored in as there is no other explanation for the scarcity of Joe Wood and Eddie Cicotte as they were printed in the common series (Recruit backs). Now that I have said that, there are certain cards which feature Recruit backs that are listed as very tough in different publications like Speaker and Graham which ARE very tough but other supposed toughies like Wilie and Collins which are not that hard to find. I think the rarity structure for the tough backs (Red Cycle, Broadleaf and Anonymous) which was set up 20-25 years, needs updating and I intend to report my findings and thinking to Bob Lemke for next year's price guide. For example, Downey and Baumann are tougher than Rassmusson and yet you always see Rassmusson listed right behind Ragan and Saier in scarcity tier structures. I have also seen a number of Saiers the last 2 years.
As far as backs go, I know that hypothetically the "other" Anonymous back could appear on every member of the set, and has been reported as such, but the truth is that these backs are very undervalued as I have seen more Napoleon backs the last two years than the supposedly more common "Anonymous" backs.
Well, just my 2 cents. I could go on for hours and hours but good luck to you Tim in your pursuits.
Bob

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

My population survey on the T207 set has reached 1400 cards, and it's clear that there are vast differences in availability from card to card in this set.

Please help with this project by send me a list of the T207s you currently have, or the ones you don't have -- whichever is easiest. If you have a store of duplicates, let me know which ones. I'll do the rest.

*** EVEN IF YOU ONLY HAVE ONE, TWO, or A FEW CARDS, YOUR INFO WILL BE VERY HELPFUL! ***

What's in it for you? I'll share the complete results with everyone who responds to my query and contributes something to the project.

Thanks again for reading,

Tim Newcomb

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Posted By: Jeff O

Tim, I am definatley intrigued by your project even though I do not collect T207's myself. What I don't understand is why you make a point of mentioning in both of your posts that you will share the results with those that contribute... this implies that you are not going to make the results public per se.

I would hope that after doing all of this work that you would be willing to share the results with everyone, not just those who contributed. Perhaps an article in VCBC would be appropriate - Don Betz is always looking for good material such as this. By publishing in a format such as VCBC, you can gaurantee yourself more contact from other collectors who could provide you with more information - this approach worked for me when I was researching 1910 Obak back slogans.

Just a thoguht...

Jeff O
http://www.seattlehockey.net

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Hi Jeff--

Yes, I do plan to make the results public, probably in VCBC if they're interested. I wrote that simply to encourage people to respond to my query, to assure them that the time they spent in responding, and the information they supplied, wasn't going to disappear down some private black hole.

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Posted By: rusty

I got 20 cards T207 names like:LOUDERMILK,WEAVER,WILSON,HARTLEY,TYLER,WOODBU RN,MILLER,PHELAN,RATH,FOURNIER,HYATT,WORKS,SWEENEY ,BLANDING,RASMUSEN,LANGE,BAUMAN.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Hi Folks--

My population survey on the T207 set has reached nearly 4000 cards. I'll probably continue to gather info through the National and then write up the results. So if you've been meaning to send me some info on the set, please do it as soon as you can--

Please help with this project by sending me a list of the T207s you currently have, or the ones you don't have -- whichever is easiest. I'll do the rest. If you have a store of duplicates, let me know which ones.

If you have them itemized by backs, send that info too, but if not, don’t worry about it. I want to make this as quick and easy as possible so more people will contribute.

Two exceptions: please DON’T include cards graded by PSA or SGC, as the populations of those companies have already been surveyed. And don’t include cards bought on Ebay since April 15, 2003, for the same reason.

Thanks again--

Tim Newcomb

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Posted By: jay behrens

I wouldn't trust the pop reports since you have no way of knowing how many of those cards were resubimissions in hopes of getting a higher grade.

Jay

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Jay makes a good point. I have tallied the population reports from PSA and SGC, but I'm keeping close track of the graded vs. ungraded issue and will take the issues Jay raises into account when I write up my analysis. The ungraded population totals certainly give a purer picture of the relative rarity of the cards in the set. But handled correctly, the graded data can be useful as well.

Still lookin' for more reports on this great set! Let me know what you've got!

Tim

PS: Thanks, Leon, for your report. However, the Red Cross Buck Weaver is showing off a little, wouldn't you say. See you in Atlantic City--
Best regards, Tim

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Tim
Butcher/Broadleaf, Butcher/Anon, Speaker, Johnson.
I have a few more, but I'm not sure where they are.
I'll let you know. Be well Brian