Unconfirmed POLAR BEAR cards vs 1910 COUPON cards

[tedzan]

There is an interesting dynamic between the current list of unconfirmed POLAR BEAR cards, and the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) cards.
Comparing the missing POLAR BEAR's with the 48 Major Leaguers depicted in the 1910 COUPON set, I would venture to say that 39
of these subjects are POLAR BEAR (PB) "No-Prints". The 39 cards that are preceded by Asterisks in the following list of unconfirmed
PB cards are depicted in the 1910 COUPON set.

Furthermore, there exists a linkage between these PB "No-Prints" and the aforementioned "Quintuplicate" connection. At least 24
cards that were not printed with PB backs were printed with these 5 backs.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350, BROAD LEAF 350, COUPON,
CYCLE 350, and DRUM backs.


The following (as of today) lists the missing POLAR BEAR's......69 cards

The * denotes the cards depicted in the 1910 COUPON (T213-1) set.

Abstein
Arndt
* Becker
* Bender (trees)
Geo. Brown (Washington)
Burns
Butler
* Byrne
* Campbell
Cassidy
* Charles
Collins (A's)
* Cree
Cross
Dahlen (Brooklyn)
Demmitt (New York)
Dineen
* Donovan (throw)
* Doolan (fielding)
Downs
* Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
* Dunn (Brooklyn)
Elberfeld (portrait-Wash)
Fiene (throw)
* Fletcher
Hall
Hannifan
* Hartsel
* Hoffman (St Louis)
* Howell (portrait)
* Huggins (portrait)
* Huggins (hands/mouth)
* Hunter
* Killian (portrait)
* Knabe
* Lennox
Lundgren (KC)
Malarkey
* Marquard (portrait)
* Marshall
McAleese
* McBride
McCormick
* McElveen
McGinley
* McIntyre (Detroit)
* Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moran (Providence)
* Mowery
* Myers (bat)
* Myers (fielding
Oberlin
O'Hara (NY)
* Paskert
Phelan
Poland
* Rhoades (hands/chest)
* Rossman
* Schmidt (portrait)
* Starr
Stephens
* Street (portrait)
* Summers
* Sweeney (Boston)
* Thomas
* Wilson
Zimmerman

I would appreciate your thoughts on this apparent mutually exclusive connection between the T213-1 cards and the missing PB's ?

Due credit goes to Brian Weisner, who originally observed this PB vs T213-1 connection several years ago.


TED Z

[judsonhamlin]

Great work again, Ted (and Brian). My initial reaction to this is that the "quintuple back" cards were printed first in the "350" series time frame and that the Polar Bears came in a little later (even if only a few weeks) as older subjects (Brown and Dahlen come to mind) were phased out and newer images were added. Thoughts?

[Abravefan11]

Hi Ted - Sorry I missed you at the National.

As you have proven some back groups like AB460 and Uzit mirror each other showing that ALC printed these cards during the same print run.

American Beauty Frame 350, Broad Leaf 350, Cycle 350, and Drum (A+B+C+D) are another match within the 350 Only group where we see this. However Coupon Type 1's are not part of this group. There are a lot of similarities but they aren't a match and were not printed at the same time.

The same goes for the Polar Bear No Prints and the Coupon Type 1's. At first look it seems compelling that the two are somewhat linked intentionally but it's circumstance more than planning.

[tedzan]

My notes suggest that the AB, BL, Cycle, and Drum cards were printed during the Summer/Fall of 1910. And,
the "Coupon" set was most likely printed in the Summer of 1910 (as it comprises of only 350 series Subjects).

Now, I think we can narrow down the 1st printing (350 series) of the Polar Bear cards to May 1910. The NY
variations of Demmitt and O'Hara do not exist with Polar Bear backs. The St Louis variations of Demmitt and
O'Hara were printed only with Polar Bear backs.

Considering the above facts, an accurate timeline for the initial Polar Bear release can be established....since
both Demmitt & O'Hara played only a few games with their respective St Louis teams at the start of the 1910
season (then they were sent down to the Eastern League in early May of 1910).


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

Tim,
what is the circumstance to which you are referring which would lend itself
to 'somewhat' of a linkage?

many thanks,
best,
barry

[tedzan]

Some approach the enormity of The Monster with "fear". They think that it was cobbled together serendipitously. Oh contraire.
For the most part, I see it as the result of very diligent attention by its designers to produce a quality series of BB cards that
accurately reflected the BB scene during the 1908-1910 seasons. When I started my 1st set in 1980, I was determined to com-
pletely understand its complexity.

1st.....I do not think that "linkage" is the appropriate wording here regarding the PB "No-Prints" and the T213-1 Major Leaguer's.
It is strictly a timeline difference. I feel very strongly that the initial PB press run can be dated to May (or June) 1910. Which is
reinforced by the Demmitt & O'Hara scenario. Furthermore, the following 20 subjects (which happen to be in the T213-1 set)
had either retired, or were in transition when the PB 350-series cards were printed.

2nd.....considering that quite a few of these T213 guys' careers ended in 1909 (or early 1910), I would venture to say that
American Litho. produced this COUPON set earlier in 1910 than was, heretofore, thought of.

T213-1 subjects that are expected to be POLAR BEAR No-Prints......

Becker
Byrne
Campbell
Charles
Joe Dunn
Engle
Fletcher
Howell
Huggins
Hunter
Killian
LaPorte
Lennox
Marshall
Matty McIntyre
Mowery
Paskert
Rhoades
Rossman
Starr

This also applies to 6 - 10 Southern Leaguer's in this T213 set.


TED Z

Tim

Mark Macrae and I were hoping to meet you in Baltimore, but we both had to leave Friday evening.

[Abravefan11]

Hi Barry – This situation is a complex one to say the least but I’ll try and give a brief and hopefully easy to understand answer.

There are 68 Coupon Type 1’s that breakdown as follows.
20 - Southern Leaguers (All Southern Association)
6 – Super Prints
42 - 350 Only

We know the 20 SL’ers were not printed with Polar Bear backs.

The six Super prints were printed with Polar Bear backs.

Of the remaining 42 I show the following:

A+B+C+D – 3 No Prints

Polar Bear – 39 Unconfirmed
Carolina Brights – 32 Unconfirmed
Old Mill – 31 Unconfirmed

If we select just a subset of the T213-1’s (350 Only) it would seem at first look like there is a correlation between the PB No Prints, or CB’s, or OM’s and the 350 Only players included in the Coupon 1 set and there might be (more on that later) but it’s not a printing connection like the 350 A+B+C+D or BL460/Red Hindu. There are enough anomalies when comparing the groups that show they’re not a match. The same goes for the Coupon Type 1 and A+B+C+D.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

At first look it seems compelling that the two are somewhat linked intentionally but it's circumstance more than planning.

Ted - What I was trying to say with this statement is that it wasn't intentional for ATC to include the majority in one set and exclude them from the other. It was a matter of circumstance (a printing timeline difference) that they were included in one set and not the other. I think we're on the same page with that thought.

The Coupon Type 1's are an enigma and I won't derail this thread regarding them but there is a lot left to be discussed.

[tedzan]

Regarding your......"There are enough anomalies when comparing the groups that show they’re not a match.
The same goes for the Coupon Type 1 and A+B+C+D."

As of today, 23 of the 48 Major Leaguers in the COUPON set conform to the "Quintuplicate" back design.
And, another future large DRUM find might just add 12 more COUPON subjects to this list.

A-B-Co-Cy-D confirmed cards......

Becker
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Charles
Chase (blue portrait)
Cobb (red portrait)
Donovan (throw)
Engle
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Huggins (portrait)
Hunter
Killian (portrait)
Knabe
LaPorte
Lennox
Mathewson (dark cap)
Marshall
McBride
Myers (fielding)
Starr
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (bat)
Willett


Yes, the COUPON-1 set is an "enigma'....but, at the same time I find this set quite fascinating. For instance,
there are 48 Major Leaguers from the 350-only series. Now, where have we seen that number (48) before ?

Southern League series and the 460-only series....perhaps, 48-card sheets were a standard sheet format at
American Litho. ? ?


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted - Only about 10% of the 350 Only players are "No Prints" in the A+B+C+D. So if you select a group of 42 to be in the Coupon set is makes sense that almost all of them will exist in both. But No Print A+B+C+D do exist in the Coupon Type 1 and this is telling.

I think you're on the right track at looking at the number of cards in this set, but I don't think it's 48. 48 was the total number of Southern Leaguers but all weren't produced in the first run. Only 34 were printed in the 150 series. 34 x 2 = 68. How many cards in the Coupon Type 1 set? 68

[tedzan]

1st....As you know, the Piedmont and Old Mill press runs of the SL series are 48 cards. If the press run of the 34 SL Hindu cards
was also printed on a 48-card sheet, then I can imagine that they filled out that sheet with 14 Major Leaguers (ML). And, there
were many, many more Piedmont and Old Mill SLer's printed than Hindu SLer's.

Look, I'm using the example of 48 since it has occurred often in this set. It is one possible format (12 cards across x 4 rows down).
Of course, there are certainly other possible sheet configurations.

2nd....Regarding the Coupon set. You are mixing ML subjects with SL subjects. It doesn't work that way. We have concluded that
ALC pre-printed fronts of T206's (at least 4 or 5 sheets within the 350-only series) and added the tobacco brand back as needed.
The pre-printed sheets of SL cards were separate from the ML sheets.
Therefore, what I am saying is that a pre-printed sheet of 48 ML (from an early 350-only series run) was selected and printed with
the Coupon backs. And, I emphasize an EARLY RUN, since many of the subjects on that sheet designated for the Coupon backs were
retired ballplayers during the 1909 season.


TED Z

[ethicsprof]

very helpful and very intricate elucidations. many thanks.
Tim, when you say that 'it would seem at first look like there is a correlation...
and there might be... but it's not a printing connection,' may I ask (using Ted's language) what the explicit correlation is and should it be considered
serendipitous cobbling or diligent intentionality by the designer?
forgive any excursus from the thread, please.

best,
barry

[Abravefan11]

In my opinion the original 34 SL players were printed on one sheet or sheets first. The additional 14 came later and were included on sheets with other minor or major league players. This explains why even though the original 34 are available on more backs than the added 14, the added 14 are more common. They were mass produced since their sheets contained major leaguers as opposed to just SLer's. Also this is backed up by the Brown Old Mill cards only showing up within the original 34 group. Just those sheets had the Brown Old Mill printed on them.

Concerning the 48 major leaguers from the Coupon Type 1 set you need to keep in mind that 6 of those are Super Prints, so we're really discussing 42 350 Only players.

With that said I'm not mixing up the SL and ML players. The Coupon Type 1 were printed with front image sheets specific to that back. 68 front images in some order that then had the backs printed on them. They did not in my opinion segregate the ML and SL players onto different sheets for that issue as they did with the first 34 in the 150 series.

[tedzan]

There were 48 Major Leaguers on that COUPON sheet....not 42.

I hate to be argumentative with you....but, the Six Super Prints were originally 350-only subjects.
This is incontrovertible, since these six cards exist with AB 350 Frame backs.
Furthermore, they also exist with Sweet Caporal 460, Factory 30 backs; therefore, they are not 350/460 subjects.

As Scot Reader once described these six subjects...."they are 350-only, and 460-only cards at the same time"....
split personalities, so to say.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

That's a good point and I'm willing to concede it to you if I could be sure the Coupons were printed during the early 350 print run. They may have been but I'm not sure I've seen enough yet to convince me of that.

[tedzan]

Another tidbit that is supportive of my contention that American Litho. (ALC) printed the T206's in sheets of 48, that I have considered,
is the prevalance of many major 48 and 50-card sets since 1887. Some notable examples are......

1887 Allen & Ginter (N28)
1888 Allen & Ginter (N29)
1888 Goodwin Champions (N162)
1888 Kimballs (N184)
1895 Mayo (N300)
1903 Breisch-Williams (E107)......3 x 50
1910 E101
1910 Mello Mints (E105)
1910 American Caramel (E106)

Apparently the track width of the printing presses used by the lithographers of that era (ALC, Geo. Harris & Sons, etc.) lend themselves
to sheets of this size (19" W x 12" L).


Consider this fact....the T206 150 series consists of 144 cards that were printed with 150/350 backs. That neatly translates to 3 x 48.


TED Z