PWCC 10 Retraction Rule

[Edwolf1963]

What am I missing here? Current top bidder (d***d 1287) has 21 retractions within the last 6 months. I asked them a couple days ago why this is OK in lieu of their recently established rule .. no response to date and he's still active. In fact he has re-upped as the top bidder.

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/142...p2047675.l2565

I know this was recently brought up on the board and I'm not trying to pile on, figure out whether it's malicious, "naively inconsiderate", how much they spend, etc. etc. Just simply is there a rule as PWCC has stated or no? If so, again - what am I missing here / why all the exceptions?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Edwolf1963

What am I missing here? Current top bidder (d***d 1287) has 21 retractions within the last 6 months. I asked them a couple days why this is OK in lieu of their recently established rule .. no response to date and he's still active. In fact he has re-upped as the top bidder.

http://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/142...p2047675.l2565

I know this was recently brought up on the board and I'm not trying to pile on, figure out whether it's malicious, naively inconsiderate, how much they spend, etc. etc. Just simply is there a rule as PWCC has stated or no? If so, again - what am I missing here / why all the exceptions?

It must be this one, or the fact, as was mentioned, it was written on April 1st, or better known as Fools day.

"Jeez...give Betsy a chance to come on here and explain. My guess is that she can tell us these bidders have both won and paid for more than $60,000 worth of auctions and are therefore exempt from the retraction policy"

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL. That new hire must have the week off.

[Dewey]

Looking at a card offered by gregmorriscards. Top bidder with 56 retractions last 6 months. Gross.

[sedin26]

Originally Posted by Dewey

Looking at a card offered by gregmorriscards. Top bidder with 56 retractions last 6 months. Gross.

That is bad but what incentive is there to shill a gregmorriscards auction? As far as I'm aware, he doesn't consign and of the many, many auctions of his I watch, the vast majority seem to go for reasonable prices.......not infrequently lower than one might expect.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by sedin26

That is bad but what incentive is there to shill a gregmorriscards auction? As far as I'm aware, he doesn't consign and of the many, many auctions of his I watch, the vast majority seem to go for reasonable prices.......not infrequently lower than one might expect.

He doesn't consign, but I would hardly say his cards go for great steals. It easier to overlook cards that sell for less than $10 though, so that is why PWCC shilling gets all the eyeballs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

High bidder on psa 10 jordan rc has 25 retractions as of this post.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

High bidder on the more expensive of the sp authentic bradys has 11.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

[Bliggity]

Might as well add my story to the mix, although it's nothing earth-shattering. During the last prewar auction, there were two cards I planned to bid on, and both had bidders with 10+ retractions. I emailed PWCC while the auctions were pending, and received no response. After the auctions were over, I had the next-highest bid on one of the cards, with the serial-retractor winning. I contacted PWCC again to see if I was the winner under their policy. I received a response back from Betsy (or whoever it was) stating that PWCC would not cancel the bids

"unless it is clear that specific bid manipulation has occurred. In this case, my team confirmed there isn't clear evidence of bid manipulation, so we won't cancel the user ID's bids. "

Just more confirmation that serial-retractors are free to bid and win auctions, so long as PWCC determines that everything's Kosher.

I'm all for having anti-manipulation policies. But having a policy full of unwritten exceptions and caveats is worse than having no policy at all, because the policy creates an expectation on the part of the customer that goes unfulfilled. Better to just leave it to the eBay wild west and buyer beware.

[Leon]

They need to adopt our BST renege policy. First time and no one is out any money...chalk it up as a mistake. The second time requires a good explanation or they are gone. The third time.....buh bye.

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Might as well add my story to the mix, although it's nothing earth-shattering. During the last prewar auction, there were two cards I planned to bid on, and both had bidders with 10+ retractions. I emailed PWCC while the auctions were pending, and received no response. After the auctions were over, I had the next-highest bid on one of the cards, with the serial-retractor winning. I contacted PWCC again to see if I was the winner under their policy. I received a response back from Betsy (or whoever it was) stating that PWCC would not cancel the bids

"unless it is clear that specific bid manipulation has occurred. In this case, my team confirmed there isn't clear evidence of bid manipulation, so we won't cancel the user ID's bids. "

Just more confirmation that serial-retractors are free to bid and win auctions, so long as PWCC determines that everything's Kosher.

I'm all for having anti-manipulation policies. But having a policy full of unwritten exceptions and caveats is worse than having no policy at all, because the policy creates an expectation on the part of the customer that goes unfulfilled. Better to just leave it to the eBay wild west and buyer beware.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Bliggity

Might as well add my story to the mix, although it's nothing earth-shattering. During the last prewar auction, there were two cards I planned to bid on, and both had bidders with 10+ retractions. I emailed PWCC while the auctions were pending, and received no response. After the auctions were over, I had the next-highest bid on one of the cards, with the serial-retractor winning. I contacted PWCC again to see if I was the winner under their policy. I received a response back from Betsy (or whoever it was) stating that PWCC would not cancel the bids

"unless it is clear that specific bid manipulation has occurred. In this case, my team confirmed there isn't clear evidence of bid manipulation, so we won't cancel the user ID's bids. "

Just more confirmation that serial-retractors are free to bid and win auctions, so long as PWCC determines that everything's Kosher.

I'm all for having anti-manipulation policies. But having a policy full of unwritten exceptions and caveats is worse than having no policy at all, because the policy creates an expectation on the part of the customer that goes unfulfilled. Better to just leave it to the eBay wild west and buyer beware.

Is Betsy actually real? Or is she a figment of Brent's imagination designed to shield him from criticism for his fraud -- like his anti-shill bidding policy?

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238568

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Guess not.

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Leon

They need to adopt our BST renege policy. First time and no one is out any money...chalk it up as a mistake. The second time requires a good explanation or they are gone. The third time.....buh bye.

I agree that would be much better. Have a firm policy and hold to it, or don't have any policy at all. Having a policy that's not enforced hurts both the customer and the business reputation to a greater extent than having no policy, because the customer has unfulfilled expectations and the business loses credibility.

I try to teach my kid this same basic concept, and I try to impart it to my professional clients as well. There's no point in half-@$$ing something - you either do it, or you don't.

[Leon]

She is real. I spoke with her on the phone several months ago and expressed some big concerns.

Originally Posted by calvindog

Is Betsy actually real? Or is she a figment of Brent's imagination designed to shield him from criticism for his fraud -- like his anti-shill bidding policy?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238568

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on "ANY" user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Guess not.

They must have forgot to add: "Unless you have bid, won and purchased anything from us in the past"

[Bliggity]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238568

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Guess not.

I will say that in Betsy's email to me, she did say that the bidder IDs would be blocked, but the bids themselves would not be cancelled absent evidence of manipulation with regard to that specific bid. So I suppose blocking the bidder from future bids but allowing the instant bids to stand technically comports with the "policy," but I think Betsy et al demonstrated in the last thread that they still won't enforce the black letter of the policy when it comes to high-rollers.

ETA: Upon further reflection, I certainly understand (as per the scenario in the last thread) why the 2nd bidder in line would want to retract a bid if a higher bidder above them has retracted, thus screwing the underbidder. However, that creates a cascade of retractions, and leads to uneven enforcement of the "policy." The much better way to enforce the policy would be to not only block the IDs, but also to cancel any bids placed by those IDs, even if those bids are deemed to be legitimate. That way, serial-retractors simply cannot participate in PWCC auctions, and underbidder bids will be restored to their proper levels. If the underbidder still has concerns about their max having been exposed, PWCC can cancel the bids on their end and allow the underbidder to re-bid (or not), thereby preventing the underbidder from having to retract on his/her own.

[bobbyw8469]

All this complaining and bitching about PWCC.....As long as they get higher prices than smaller sellers auctioning the same items, the problem is going to get worse, not better. Mark my words.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

All this complaining and bitching about PWCC.....As long as they get higher prices than smaller sellers auctioning the same items, the problem is going to get worse, not better. Mark my words.

Yes, you are right. But as one of my favorite quotes goes, "All I have is a voice, to undo the folded lie."

[bbcardzman]

Here's another idea: You could ignore PWCC auctions just like people do for a battlefield auction.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=238568

"As of April 1, 2017 PWCC places blocks on any user ID that has more than 10 bid cancellations in the past six months. This reflects a reduction in the number of allowed bid cancellations from 25 to 10. As the program continues to mature and continues to affect bidder behavior, PWCC will continue to reduce the threshold."

Guess not.

I guess the program hasn't matured yet?

.. Seriously, all the "complaining and bitching" (most of it anyway) wouldn't have come about had they not put out their policy and in the name of addressing fraudsters, shill bidding, shenanigans of the sort, etc. I don't see what possible purpose there could be to put out a strict, stated policy only to not uphold it?

[slidekellyslide]

I knew as soon as Betsy told us that they were instituting a 10 retraction rule that they would regret it. As long as ebay allows it to happen it's going to happen and there are going to be bidders that abuse it. How many auctions do they have running at any one time? There is no way one person can monitor that especially in the sports card hobby where the percentage of slimeballs is extremely high. I would think that there could be some third party software developed to catch bid retractions and automatically send warnings or block bidders, it can't be that difficult to implement. But just like Ebay, PWCC doesn't really want bid retractors blocked from bidding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

How hard is it to monitor your (you fill in the blank) most expensive auctions? Especially with an (alleged) full time hire who is (allegedly) monitoring auctions for fraud? The ones I posted today were in their top five auctions and took less than a minute to find.

Yes, ebay is at fault, but so is PWCC.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Leon

She is real. I spoke with her on the phone several months ago and expressed some big concerns.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I knew as soon as Betsy told us that they were instituting a 10 retraction rule that they would regret it. As long as ebay allows it to happen it's going to happen and there are going to be bidders that abuse it. How many auctions do they have running at any one time? There is no way one person can monitor that especially in the sports card hobby where the percentage of slimeballs is extremely high. I would think that there could be some third party software developed to catch bid retractions and automatically send warnings or block bidders, it can't be that difficult to implement. But just like Ebay, PWCC doesn't really want bid retractors blocked from bidding.

And all along I thought "Betsy" was a bat purchased to knock all those slime balls out of the park while barefoot.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How hard is it to monitor your (you fill in the blank) most expensive auctions? Especially with an (alleged) full time hire who is (allegedly) monitoring auctions for fraud? The ones I posted today were in their top five auctions and took less than a minute to find.

Yes, ebay is at fault, but so is PWCC.

PWCC doesn't really care. Stuff trumps all, they know that. They are helped more than they are harmed by bid retractors. There have been Net54 posters in these threads who criticize and still admit they are consigning to them. Some of the loudest Mastro/Legendary critics were still bidding in their auctions all the way to the end even though they knew fraud was happening.

Change will come from the buyers saying no, but that ain't ever happening.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dan, you likely are right, but that makes it all the more offensive to come on here and make a pious high-profile display of allegedly trying to stop fraud.

And Frank, this is a serious thread son. Get thee back to the watercooler.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan, you likely are right, but that makes it all the more offensive to come on here and make a pious high-profile display of allegedly trying to stop fraud.

And Frank, this is a serious thread son. Get thee back to the watercooler.

Mastro did the same thing. And the only thing that will stop PWCC is an arrest. Which could happen.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Edwolf1963

I guess the program hasn't matured yet?

.. Seriously, all the "complaining and bitching" (most of it anyway) wouldn't have come about had they not put out their policy and in the name of addressing fraudsters, shill bidding, shenanigans of the sort, etc. I don't see what possible purpose there could be to put out a strict, stated policy only to not uphold it?

It is to fool people, like myself, with limited experience and knowledge, to make us think they are a well established, honest, transparent and trustworthy company/business.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Mastro did the same thing. And the only thing that will stop PWCC is an arrest. Which could happen.

It won't happen from bid retractions. It is A-Okay to retract as many bids as your heart desires on ebay.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by irv

It is to fool people, like myself, with limited experience and knowledge, to make us think they are a well established, honest, transparent and trustworthy company/business.

I think they totally believed they were going to uphold this rule until they found out most of their big spenders were doing it.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

It won't happen from bid retractions. It is A-Okay to retract as many bids as your heart desires on ebay.

Who said it has anything to do with bid retractions? Last I checked retracting bids is not listed in the U.S. Code.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Mastro did the same thing. And the only thing that will stop PWCC is an arrest. Which could happen.

That's an awfully bold statement for the only transparent large scale AH in our business. If the crime is having retracted bids in your actions, you might as well back up the paddy wagon to all the AH's.

Fact is, all AH's are whores, advertising their goods to the world. Asking any AH to block a seller is like asking a lawyer not to send a bill; ain't gonna happen.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who said it has anything to do with bid retractions? Last I checked retracting bids is not listed in the U.S. Code.

Been talking to Cortney?

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Mastro did the same thing. And the only thing that will stop PWCC is an arrest. Which could happen.

And you are going to represent him right?

[Jeffrompa]

wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Been talking to Cortney?

Nope. Been handing out two scoops of ice cream!

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Edwolf1963

What am I missing here? Current top bidder (d***d 1287) has 21 retractions within the last 6 months. I asked them a couple days ago why this is OK in lieu of their recently established rule .. no response to date and he's still active / why all the exceptions?

Everybody gets a Do~Ovar... oR Ovar~Do, DependiN oN How ya wanna/gunna Look at THeM ~
From the Date/Time PWCC Started their 10 Bid Retraction Rule!?!?

His "21 Bid Retracts" are/is His Base Line Number...
Ahhh Maybe... oR NoT!?!?!

Anythin's Possible Aye?

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

"you might as well back up the paddy wagon"

Are we now assuming THaT ALL of These Retractions are CumiN from the Irish?

[Edwolf1963]

Update and to be fair, I received a message back from PWCC today ..

"Thank you for reaching out. You are correct, this user ID is in violation of our bid retraction policy. We have placed a block on this user ID and have retracted their bid on this listing."

[frankbmd]

Good to hear. Now the lot has a winning bidder with only 5 bid retraction.
We're good.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In the meantime, no action on this 25 retraction bidder, on an infinitely more expensive card.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

[JeremyW]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In the meantime, no action on this 25 retraction bidder, on an infinitely more expensive card.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

I took a look at that auction & saw that there was a bid retraction. I then looked at that bidder's (the retractor) history & he/she has over 200 retractions.

[felada]

Weren't they also going to put an end to the nonsense of string bidding?

[frankbmd]

If one has more retractions than bids, a surrogate bidder would be required that would allow you to retract his bid, protecting the surrogates ability to bid within the PWCC policy even if it is enforced.

I'm going to give this a little more thought, but my future may rest in a bid retraction enterprise which could be retained by eBay, PWCC and consignors everywhere.

I'll need a slogan though.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by felada

Weren't they also going to put an end to the nonsense of string bidding?

I don't think they said they would do that, hell, it would take away a big percentage of their bids at least on high ticket items. Here's a good one found instantly, same bidder has bid 26 times on the same item.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

Only 17 on this one.
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

22
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

Seems an odd way, to me, to go about trying to win an item for the lowest price, but what do I know.

[felada]

See below

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

My name is Betsy Huigens; Brent and I own PWCC Auctions. Our company has always considered the integrity of our auctions to be our number one priority. We take a proactive approach towards monitoring bidders and taken action when appropriate. The purpose of this post is to announce the next phase of policing. I’ve historically monitored and managed our comments on the message boards (like this one), so I know how important auction integrity is to the collecting community. It gives me great personal satisfaction to take the next step in ensuring our venue is the most trusted and honest marketplace in the world.

As members of the eBay selling community, we don’t operate in a vacuum. The same independence of software that offers transparency and protects maximum bids also somewhat constrains our ability to make quick, sweeping change. Having said that, our relationship with eBay has allowed us to convey the importance of auction integrity to the right people and we are excited by the action eBay has taken. Specifically, starting with our last auction (Premier Auction #7) eBay began a “pilot” project with PWCC specifically enabling us to take action when we notice concerning behavior.

In close partnership with eBay, we are formally announcing the following policy which we will employ to monitor bidding, effective immediately. Considering our policy, we reserve the right to contact users whose behavior falls outside this policy, and in some cases, with the support of eBay we will restrict bidding privileges and eBay may even issue suspensions on specific user IDs from the eBay marketplace.

Bid Retractions:

• The overwhelming majority of bid retractions are in violation of eBay’s stated policy. With few exceptions, all bid retractions on a PWCC auction are reported to eBay and result in an eBay-issued warning. A second retraction will result in that user ID being blocked from further participation in PWCC auctions and eBay suspending biding privileges for a period of time across the eBay platform. A third retraction will result in permanent suspension from eBay. Please spread the word.
• eBay wide, any user ID that has a high number of bid retractions on the eBay platform will be blocked from participating in PWCC auctions. We believe that the majority of users who abuse the bid retraction tool will cease this behavior. We have to establish a starting point, so to start any user ID we identify that has greater than 25 bid retractions over the last six months will be blocked from participating in PWCC auctions. Any user ID we identify with between 10 and 25 retractions will be notified of our policy and warned. In time, we plan to reduce the allowed number of retractions to 10, and perhaps as low as 5. Note: a user’s bid retraction count is not a statistic we can automatically filter; we appreciate the help of the collecting community in identifying user IDs which show quantities beyond our defined limits.

String Bidding:

• String Bidding is a new term we’ve coined to define a series of sequential bids at the eBay minimum bid increment. This practice can be perceived as bid manipulation because it increases the odds of a bidder exposing the maximum bid of another bidder without becoming the high bidder him or herself. Any instances of string bidding will be flagged and bidders warned and logged. Subsequent infractions may result in that user ID being blocked.

Unpaid Items:

• As has been the policy for several years, any unpaid item on a PWCC auction results in a permanent block of that user ID from participating in PWCC auctions.
• Additionally, any user ID which has two or more unpaid items strikes across the eBay platform are filtered and restricted from bidding with PWCC.

The time has come for us to respect this hobby as a commodities marketplace. Since implementing this policy last month we have already placed blocks on over 50 user IDs. It is our belief that the majority bidders whose behavior falls outside our policy are otherwise reliable and considerate members of the trading card marketplace. As such, it is our strong belief that in due time, problematic behavior will become a thing of the past. We encourage other eBay sellers to take a similar stance and aid us in supporting the integrity of the eBay platform.

Again, the integrity of our auctions is our number one priority. We ask that the collecting community on this board and others assist PWCC in identifying concerning bid behavior on any of our auctions. Please notify PWCC of any suspicious behavior by sending an email to bidmonitoring@pwccauctions.com. I can be reached at betsy@pwccauctions.com if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions. We thank everyone for their commitment to the hobby.

Thank you for your kind assistance in this process.

Betsy Huigens
PWCC Auctions, LLC
website: www.pwccauctions.com
betsy@pwccauctions.com

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

If one has more retractions than bids, a surrogate bidder would be required that would allow you to retract his bid, protecting the surrogates ability to bid within the PWCC policy even if it is enforced.

I'm going to give this a little more thought, but my future may rest in a bid retraction enterprise which could be retained by eBay, PWCC and consignors everywhere.

I'll need a slogan though.

How about...
"Bid to da Lid wit ALIBLIE"

Your can Call Your New Company "ALIBLIE"

Although... Wit Your Honest Reputation,
I Sincerely Doubt THaT You'll MaKe Any Ca$H at All!

My Apologies Frank!
I Nevar Really Like ta Turn Good Things Bad ~
Howevar, THiS iS fir Your Own Good

[Eric72]

I realize this is dreaming the impossible dream; however, wish eBay would simply do away with bid retractions...period.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I realize this is dreaming the impossible dream; however, wish eBay would simply do away with bid retractions...period.

I don't have a problem with bid retractions if they are used properly. I have had to do it once in 20 years I have been on eBay. I was in a hurry and fat fingered a # and hit the bid and confirm buttons before I noticed my mistake. Then I canceled my bid and bid what I originally intended.

My opinion is they need to chance how they are used. They should only be allowed if you place another bid on the item that is higher than the high bid is at that time.

[sago]

eBay should charge the bidder for each retraction. Have the amount increase each time. Place a limit on how many retractions you can have and then you are banned.

All sorts of things they can do, but will not.

On that subject, I think if someone places a safety bid, it should automatically go to the next increment. If you want to bid higher than your initial amount, you should have to pay. It can be intimidating for some people to bid, knowing that someone who has the next three bids in a row could have bid a very high amount. It can limit the bidding, and the seller loses money.

[bnorth]

Holy bid retractions Batman, this is the second worst I have ever seen. http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Holy bid retractions Batman, this is the second worst I have ever seen. http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...p2471758.m4792

Bwahahahaha. Yeah, ebay is likely to help with this issue. LOLOL.