Did I buy a Fake Marquard Signed T206?

[Marslife]

Hey Fellas!

need some help. I am working on a Marquard back run and have the cards displayed nicely on my office wall in a frame. I thought a signed T206 would be an awesome addition to the run with the auto being the center piece.

I paid up ($1500) for a real nice dark signed T206 in the last Clean Sweep auction. has a LOA from JSA (picture below) so I bid up on it. Card came here with the LOA, I turned around and dropped another $150 with shipping to SGC to get the card slabbed. I also figured what the hell... get the sig authenticated, card graded and slab it up so I can add it to the wall frame....

I added a copy of the JSA LOA with the order form, and specifially wrote on the form "PLEASE ENCAPSULATE!"

Card came back the same way I sent it raw and add insult to injury, described as "not a genuine example."

reasons stated:

*sizing of letters inconsistent
*letter shape and or formation irregular
*drawn slowly with hesitation and/or pen lifts...

OUCH!

I know there are some T206 signed marquard experts out there. what do you think. If I want is slabbed should I send it to PSA for the tie breaker?

Help!

Thanks!!

Clifford Franklin


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[bigfish]

Looks good to me

[x2drich2000]

Unfortunately, autograph authentication is not an exact science. A board members with far more knowledge i'm sure will chime in, but in the mean time, have a look at this site for comparisons: http://www.signedt206.com/how-many-s...arquards-exist

[ccre]

I am no expert in this area. I will say I bid on this card as well but just couldn't bid it up too much because I just didn't have a good feeling about the authenticity. That sure stinks. I hope it plays out ok for you on the end.

[Republicaninmass]

It looks close, but something just looks off to me. I'd try at Beckett or PSA, or just be happy with the JSA letter. I had a bunch of Clean Sweep cards fail from a large lot and they told me "I hope the rest of the cards make up for it"

[Fred]

Cliff,

What's unfortunate is that one TPAuth said "ok" another said "not ok". Unfortunately, if you ever want to sell it then the right thing would be to disclose what was told to you by both.

Spence is supposed to be an authority on autos but I'd venture to guess he's made the wrong assessment (good auto but would not authenticate or authenticated a bogus auto) a few times. Since it's a Spence cert, some people may swear by it.

Looking at it, I wouldn't want to make a decision on it. Personally, I'd rather have a T206 signed with a fountain pen.

What truly sucks is that you now own it and may never get the full enjoyment out of it because one TPAuth said they wouldn't cert it (even though it could be authentic).

I'd see if Spence uses a TPAuth that encapsulates because if that company won't cert/encapsulate it, then that would be very odd.

Good luck - and again, this really sucks because now you'll forever be doubting something that you really thought was special.

[SetBuilder]

I found another card, auctioned off in 2017 at Sig auctions, with the signature in almost exactly the same spot, with the same angle and starting/ending position. Very suspicious. Take a look: http://auction.sigauctions.com/rube_...-lot62562.aspx.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Looks spot on to me

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Looks spot on to me

Yes, literally spot on.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Yes, literally spot on.

Didn't see your original post of the other card but I still believe it's authentic and a great example.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Didn't see your original post of the other card but I still believe it's authentic and a great example.

Too weird of a coincidence for me.

From this gallery, I can see that Marquard started his signatures at random places. Never on the same spot. http://www.signedt206.com/how-many-s...rquards-exist/

I could maybe live with it if the pen was the same, but two different types of pens indicate two different signings at different times. Very unlikely that he starts the signature on the same exact spot and on the same exact angle.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Too weird of a coincidence for me.



From this gallery, I can see that Marquard started his signatures at random places. Never on the same spot. http://www.signedt206.com/how-many-s...rquards-exist/



I could maybe live with it if the pen was the same, but two different types of pens indicate two different signings at different times. Very unlikely that he starts the signature on the same exact spot and on the same exact angle.

He basically had 3 different autograph spots on his T cards. Rube stacked over Marquard, fitting the whole signature horizontally and then at that steep angle. Sometimes rarely vertically. A lot of his signatures posted on Paul's site show this and the ones I have owned as well.

[ALBB]

Seems like an awful lot of money spent on something like that. .and not getting the satisfaction you want

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

He basically had 3 different autograph spots on his T cards. Rube stacked over Marquard, fitting the whole signature horizontally and then at that steep angle. Sometimes rarely vertically. A lot of his signatures posted on Paul's site show this and the ones I have owned as well.

This is why autograph authentication is such a metaphysical concept, rooted in idealism.

No one witnessed Marquard sign that card. At this point, the only thing that matters is that you think it's real. If you think it's real, then it's real.

Nothing will ever be certain when it comes to that signature.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

This is why autograph authentication is such a metaphysical concept, rooted in idealism.



No one witnessed Marquard sign that card. At this point, the only thing that matters is that you think it's real. If you think it's real, then it's real.



Nothing will ever be certain when it comes to that signature.

You could make the same argument for every autograph ever signed that you don't know the authenticity unless you witness it signed yourself. With that said, there are many many techniques to prove an autograph authentic.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

You could make the same argument for every autograph ever signed that you don't know the authenticity unless you witness it signed yourself. With that said, there are many many techniques to prove an autograph authentic.

No, the same argument can't be made for mediums like legal contracts and checks, where the cost of recreating it by means of forgery would far outweigh the financial benefit to be gained by selling it as authentic.

It boils down to cost/benefit analysis and that Rube Marquard card, in that condition, has very little cost, and a lot of economic benefit if someone can place a signature on it. It's not a particularly hard signature to forge either, especially with a thick felt tipped pen.

Just something to think about.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

No, the same argument can't be made for mediums like legal contracts and checks, where the cost of recreating it by means of forgery would far outweigh the financial benefit to be gained by selling it as authentic.



It boils down to cost/benefit analysis and that Rube Marquard card, in that condition, has very little cost, and a lot of economic benefit if someone can place a signature on it. It's not a particularly hard signature to forge either, especially with a thick felt tipped pen.



Just something to think about.

Yes, it can. I've seen fake signed checks, I'm sure you have as well. I don't consider a legal document to be an autograph in my opinion. True, but unless you recreate an historically rare signature that's a different story.

If that were the case, why don't we see more signed T206 cards? A signed Larry Doyle just sold for $800 or so and it's probably a $5-$15 card raw. Why don't people buy them up and place a signature on it, his is easy as well.

His signature may not be hard to forge but he has some tells with his signature.

Trust me, I think about it all the time unfortunately lol.

In the end I think it's good and looks just like the ones I've owned and many I've seen. I have had Mike Trout autographs I got signed in person myself that have both passed and failed authenticity. Like you said, boils down to if YOU believe it's authentic or not.

[SetBuilder]

I had a feeling the card was signed recently, so I went on Worthpoint and found this on page 6.

I think this pretty much means case closed.

The signature is fake.

Embarrassing gaffe for JSA.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I had a feeling the card was signed recently, so I went on Worthpoint and found this on page 6.



I think this pretty much means case closed.



The signature is fake.



Embarrassing gaffe for JSA.

Damn good research. Makes me question mine now unfortunately. When did the card sell on Worth Point out of curiosity since it's in a new holder.

This could get traced back to the forger...

[SetBuilder]

Larger images for reference...

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I had a feeling the card was signed recently, so I went on Worthpoint and found this on page 6.

I think this pretty much means case closed.

The signature is fake.

Embarrassing gaffe for JSA.

Wow. Good catch.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Damn good research. Makes me question mine now unfortunately. When did the card sell on Worth Point out of curiosity since it's in a new holder.

This could get traced back to the forger...

Feb 7, 2018.

Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ube-1913448029

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Feb 7, 2018.



Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ube-1913448029

I don't check pop reports much but is there a way to check submission dates for the serial numbers on the case?

[gregr2]

Nice research, well done. Unfortunate for the OP though.


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[HOF Auto Rookies]

Originally Posted by gregr2

Nice research, well done. Unfortunate for the OP though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's why I love this site, so much can be uncovered. I wonder if the AH would take a refund or a credit. Wonder what Spence will think about this...

[Bpm0014]

Wow is that great research!!

[gregr2]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

That's why I love this site, so much can be uncovered. I wonder if the AH would take a refund or a credit. Wonder what Spence will think about this...

I would reach back to both with some questions.


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[x2drich2000]

Awesome research, I would definitely be reaching out to both demanding a refund.

As an FYI, from CS website: "Unless noted, Clean Sweep Auctions only sells original items. We completely stand behind the authenticity of every item we sell. We will provide Letters of Authenticity from Clean Sweep Auctions upon request for all autographed items priced at $30 or more. Clean Sweep Auctions uses among the strictest standards in the industry."

Let us know how things turn out.

[Republicaninmass]

Wow, I hate to go against a professional, but this really takes the cake.

Always err on the side of caution. I'm the only one who sees at least 2 stops and starts ?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Feb 7, 2018.

Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ube-1913448029

That is not very long ago that PSA card sold. When was the auction start/finish date on the autoed card. Couldn't have been too far apart from purchase to consignment.

[JollyElm]

Wow, CSI: Card Scene Investigation.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is not very long ago that PSA card sold. When was the auction start/finish date on the autoed card. Couldn't have been too far apart from purchase to consignment.

closed Oct 11, 2018 - Lot 319 https://www.cleansweepauctions.com/i...tem=0000616093

[Fred]

The good news is that Cliff should be able to get a refund.


That was a fine piece of investigative work. My hats off to you. This makes Spence look a bit foolish. Copy that cert! There should be a "Hall of Shame" page for TPGs and TPAuth that don't quite get things right.

[ejharrington]

The forger should be prosecuted

[yanks12025]

Please keep us up to date what Clean sweep says and also JSA if you reach out to them...

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Always err on the side of caution. I'm the only one who sees at least 2 stops and starts ?

good catch

[D. Bergin]

Good chance Clean Sweep knows who the forger is, or at least whoever is working as the fence for the forger.

[ccre]

Wow ... that is amazing detective skills. Nice work! I sure hope Clean Sweep makes this right.

[gawaintheknight]

Once again I am reminded why I should continue to avoid collecting autographs. Nice detective work on the part of the person who uncovered this. I hope everything is made right.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I had a feeling the card was signed recently, so I went on Worthpoint and found this on page 6.

I think this pretty much means case closed.

The signature is fake.

Embarrassing gaffe for JSA.

Nice detective work Manny!

[h2oya311]

Good on SGC to not just accept the LOA as gospel and to make their own unbiased determination.

Impressive detective work too!!

[CobbSpikedMe]

Please definitely let us know what happens when you confront Clean Sweep about this. I'm very interested in this one.

[daves_resale_shop]

The marquard pic was taken 8/16/18 and was given the cert #z86117. I wonder if the corresponding serial #’d items were photographed the same day? Perhaps a bulk submission by the person forging the items?

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

The marquard pic was taken 8/16/18 and was given the cert #z86117. I wonder if the corresponding serial #’d items were photographed the same day? Perhaps a bulk submission by the person forging the items?

The one before was a Joe DiMaggio signed baseball but the one after is a Lefty Gomez signed card.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

The one before was a Joe DiMaggio signed baseball but the one after is a Lefty Gomez signed card.

There are about 1/2 dozen williams signed cards down the line... all felt tip, all submitted 8/16 which turns out to be the first day of the white plains show... one of the williams is in the current clean sweep auction...

Wonder if they all have the same submission number on the loas?

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

There are about 1/2 dozen williams signed cards down the line... all felt tip, all submitted 8/16 which turns out to be the first day of the white plains show... one of the williams is in the current clean sweep auction...

Wonder if they all have the same submission number on the loas?

That 1954 Topps Williams in blue sharpie looks so fake...cert #Z86120. Only a couple of numbers after the Marquard.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

The one before was a Joe DiMaggio signed baseball but the one after is a Lefty Gomez signed card.

Gomez was in the September/October auction.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Good chance Clean Sweep knows who the forger is, or at least whoever is working as the fence for the forger.

I'd be inclined to bring this to the attention of the authorities in an effort to further clean out this hobby. The hope is that Verk and JSA come out clean and just look a little foolish. It'd be nice to get the forger or people trying to pass it off.

There should be a few good leads out there:

Who requested the authentication?
Who owned the card when it was sent to JSA?

Card was authenticated on/about 22AUG18, around 2-3 weeks prior to the start of the auction.

You have to figure there is a consignor on record and a check was written to that person.

What really blows me away is the fact JSA passed it. They're looking pretty silly as an authenticator at this point.

I suppose nothing should really surprise us anymore when it comes to this hobby.

May be time to re-evaluate this hobby....

[Republicaninmass]

Maybe also see somehow who bought it graded. I can only imagine the blame game coming down the line

[chalupacollects]

SetBuilder - Manny great detective work! On the trail of grading and auto authentication both companies probably have a name and order on file - more than likely also credit card numbers.... should easily be enough for the LEO's to track down and prosecute...