What pre-war guy do you feel should be in the HOF....I'll start with Jake Daubert

[tedzan]

It appears to me that two great Brooklyn 1st basemen have been overlooked for the HOF...Jake Daubert and Gil Hodges. Daubert played for Brooklyn (1910-1918).
Traded to Cincinnati (1919-1924). A lifetime .303 hitter, he batted better than .300 for 10 of his 15 seasons. Leading the NL in 1913 with .359 and 1914 with .329
averages. With the livelier baseball in play, in 1922 he hit .336, hit 12 HR's, and led the Major Leagues with 22 Triples. Also, Jake had an exceptional fielding record
that stands out as one of the best in baseball for 1st basemen.
In the controversial 1919 World Series, he got 3 hits in the 1st game and 2 hits in the last game to help Cinci win those Series' games


Unfortunately, Jake's BB career was cut short by his death on Oct 9, 1924. Some attribute his untimely death to having been beaned earlier in the 1924 season.



......





Shown here are the various T-brand backs that the T205 Daubert is found with. If any one here knows of any more than these 6 backs, please chime in.


OK....let's hear of your choices of pre-war ballplayers that you feel should be in the HOF, but for whatever reasons have been overlooked ?


TED Z

[Exhibitman]

Frank "Lefty" O'Doul
Frank "Lefty" O'Doul is the greatest eligible position player not in the Hall of Fame. Over 970 games (30 shy of the 1,000 used for official records) from 1919 to 1934, Lefty averaged .349, winning two batting championships and hitting .398 one season, and setting the NL record for most hits in a season, which still stands. Not in any way a "homer", Lefty hit .352 at home and .347 on the road, proving he belongs among the elite hitters in history. After his days in the majors ended, he returned to the Pacific Coast League, where he was the longtime manager of the San Francisco Seals and later the San Diego and Seattle teams. Lefty was instrumental in organizing Japanese baseball, whose premiere team, the Giants, was named in his honor. Lefty is one of only 3 Americans in the Japanese baseball hall of fame. He is also one of the few players to have played for the Yankees, Dodgers and Giants while all 3 were in New York City. Lefty died on December 7, 1969. His epitaph reads "He was here at a good time and had a good time while he was here."





Lefty trying to teach Gary Cooper to bat lefthanded for "Pride of the Yankees":

[White Borders]

From Wikipedia:

William Frederick Dahlen (January 5, 1870 – December 5, 1950), nicknamed "Bad Bill" for his ferocious temperament, was an American professional baseball player and manager. He played as a shortstop in Major League Baseball for four National League teams from 1891 to 1911. After twice batting over .350 for the Chicago Colts, he starred on championship teams with the Brooklyn Superbas and the New York Giants.

At the end of his career he held the major league record for career games played (2,443); he ranked second in walks (1,064, behind Billy Hamilton's 1,187) and fifth in at bats (9,033), and was among the top ten in runs batted in (1,234), doubles (414) and extra base hits (661). He was also among the NL's top seven players in hits (2,461; some sources list totals up to 2,471), runs (1,589), triples (163) and total bases (3,447).

After leading the league in assists four times and double plays three times, he set major league records for career games (2,132), putouts (4,850), assists (7,500), total chances (13,325) and double plays (881) as a shortstop; he still holds the record for total chances, and is second in putouts and fourth in assists. His 42-game hitting streak in 1894 was a record until 1897, and remains the fourth longest in history and the longest by a right-handed NL hitter.

Best Regards,
Craig

[Bugsy]

I would put Al Reach in the Hall. He did an incredible amount to promote the game...almost as much as Al Spalding.

"Born in London, Reach first attracted attention on Brooklyn baseball diamonds in the 1850s. In 1865, he was brought to Philadelphia for $25 a week "expenses," making him one of the earliest professionals. A second baseman, although by most accounts a lefthanded thrower, he was considered an excellent batter. In 1871, when Philadelphia won the first National Association championship, he hit .348. After retiring as a player, he was one of the founders of the Phillies and served as team president from 1883 to 1902. He later was part owner of the Athletics. A sporting-goods company he founded in the 1870s prospered and eventually made him millions. In 1889 he sold out to A.G. Spalding, although he continued in an executive position. An annual baseball guide that he began in the 1880s was instrumental in developing interest in baseball statistics."

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballp...=Al_Reach_1840

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Jimmy Ryan without a question

[Bugsy]

I also think Larry Doyle should get another look. A power hitting second baseman, who won an MVP and a batting title, and was the team captain during the Giants peak seasons. I think most people compare his numbers to other generations. You really have to consider the position he played and the role he played against his peers. He was a superstar for that generation...and alltime.

[CMIZ5290]

I would vote for ed reulbach...had an incredible winning percentage and a lifetime era of just over 2.00

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Frank "Lefty" O'Doul
Frank "Lefty" O'Doul is the greatest eligible position player not in the Hall of Fame. Over 970 games (30 shy of the 1,000 used for official records) from 1919 to 1934, Lefty averaged .349, winning two batting championships and hitting .398 one season, and setting the NL record for most hits in a season, which still stands. Not in any way a "homer", Lefty hit .352 at home and .347 on the road, proving he belongs among the elite hitters in history. After his days in the majors ended, he returned to the Pacific Coast League, where he was the longtime manager of the San Francisco Seals and later the San Diego and Seattle teams. Lefty was instrumental in organizing Japanese baseball, whose premiere team, the Giants, was named in his honor. Lefty is one of only 3 Americans in the Japanese baseball hall of fame. He is also one of the few players to have played for the Yankees, Dodgers and Giants while all 3 were in New York City. Lefty died on December 7, 1969. His epitaph reads "He was here at a good time and had a good time while he was here."





Lefty trying to teach Gary Cooper to bat lefthanded for "Pride of the Yankees":

Adam

Lefty's got my vote. That photo of Lefty with Gary Cooper is tremendous. Thanks for sharing it with us.





TED Z

[D. Bergin]

I'm amazed by how little support Carl Mays ever had for getting into the HOF.

5 20-win seasons, Lifetime ERA under 3.00. On top of that he was a pretty good hitting pitcher, going a lifetime .268. Batted .343 in almost 150 AB's in 1921.

Seemed to have a superior career to team-mate Waite Hoyt who got in the HOF over 40 years ago.

I'm sure the Chapman incident and his personality doomed his chances.

[Jay Wolt]

How bout Cecil Travis. Had a .314 lifetime average. In '41 had 218 hits hitting .359.
The next 3 years he served his country, when he played ball again in '46 he hit .315

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by White Borders

From Wikipedia:

William Frederick Dahlen (January 5, 1870 – December 5, 1950), nicknamed "Bad Bill" for his ferocious temperament, was an American professional baseball player and manager. He played as a shortstop in Major League Baseball for four National League teams from 1891 to 1911. After twice batting over .350 for the Chicago Colts, he starred on championship teams with the Brooklyn Superbas and the New York Giants.

At the end of his career he held the major league record for career games played (2,443); he ranked second in walks (1,064, behind Billy Hamilton's 1,187) and fifth in at bats (9,033), and was among the top ten in runs batted in (1,234), doubles (414) and extra base hits (661). He was also among the NL's top seven players in hits (2,461; some sources list totals up to 2,471), runs (1,589), triples (163) and total bases (3,447).

After leading the league in assists four times and double plays three times, he set major league records for career games (2,132), putouts (4,850), assists (7,500), total chances (13,325) and double plays (881) as a shortstop; he still holds the record for total chances, and is second in putouts and fourth in assists. His 42-game hitting streak in 1894 was a record until 1897, and remains the fourth longest in history and the longest by a right-handed NL hitter.

Best Regards,
Craig

Great choice.

Bill Dahlen is my T206 choice, also. Back in the early 1990's, I used to hoard his cards....thinking that eventually he would become a HOFer.


....


TED Z

[David W]

Mickey Vernon - adding in the 44 and 45 season, he would have had a minimum of 2800 hits.....
Would that have been enough? I don't know.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the most obvious one yet, Shoeless Joe.........

[tedzan]

Joe's problem was that he did not permit ATC to portray him on any Major League tobacco card. Perhaps, if he had, he would be in the HOF


Unless, of course this centerfold is of Joe ...... did we ever resolve this mystery ?




T-Rex TED

[howard38]

[/

[esd10]

my vote is for jake daubert

[rhettyeakley]

-Pete Browning
-Tony Mullane
-and a host of other 19th century guys, especially some of the guys that played the majority of their career in the AA


(Jimmy Ryan is definitely also on my short list)

[z28jd]

Deacon White for the reasons explained in this article. I'm sure Joe G will love seeing this again.

http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011...he-deacon.html

[daves_resale_shop]

i give my vote to gavvy "cactus" cravath... statistically mike donlin and ed ruelbach also deserve consideration

[Brian Van Horn]

Agreed on Jake Daubert and Pete Browning. Bob Johnson would be another.

If it were strictly batting, Babe Herman (.324 lifetime batter and other guy in the Lefty O'Doul and Gary Cooper picture) and Riggs Stephenson (.336), but fielding keeps both as well as Browning out.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I also think Larry Doyle should get another look. A power hitting second baseman, who won an MVP and a batting title, and was the team captain during the Giants peak seasons. I think most people compare his numbers to other generations. You really have to consider the position he played and the role he played against his peers. He was a superstar for that generation...and alltime.

I agree completely. But I'd also like to see Wilbur Cooper get some attention.

[Chris Counts]

Is it just my imagination, or are pre-war Hall of Fame debates more diplomatic than post-war Hall of Fame debates? I get the feeling that if we were talking about Luis Tiant, Tony Oliva and Minnie Minoso being in Cooperstown, there would already be a few comments complaining about how unworthy these candidates are — and how there's already too many players in the Hall of Fame. Personally, I say open the floodgates ...

As for pre-war players who are worthy, my list starts with Cecil Travis. Doesn't he have the third highest batting average ever for a shortstop? Isn't that enough to send him to Cooperstown? Some will argue he didn't play long enough, but while some other future HOFers (like Hal Newhouser and Lou Boudreau) were padding their stats against minor leaguers, he was busy fighting in the Battle of the Bulge ...

[wolfdogg]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Jimmy Ryan without a question

+1

[wolfdogg]

William Ellsworth "Dummy" Hoy

[btcarfagno]

Jack Glasscock and Babe Adams.

Tom C

[Big Six]

Hal Chase...

[oldjudge]

Pete Browning and Dave Orr are my two choices.

[cfc1909]

Dahlen.jpgDahlenb.jpg

[packs]

I third Larry Doyle. He was the greatest National League second baseman to ever play in the majors when he retired. He led all National League second baseman in just about every offensive statistic. I feel like the best player at their position for a generation should be in the Hall of Fame.

[T205Guy]

Ditto for Edward Marvin "Big Red" Reulbach! The Cubs could sure use him now...

[ethicsprof]

cactus cravath.
THE home run king for a number of years before babe ruth redefined
everything. I think his name should be memorized by all little leaguers.
all the best,
barry

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by packs

I third Larry Doyle. He was the greatest National League second baseman to ever play in the majors when he retired. He led all National League second baseman in just about every offensive statistic. I feel like the best player at their position for a generation should be in the Hall of Fame.

Exactly. I know a lot of people don't consider Evers a Hall of Famer anyway, but it is interesting to look at their stats side by side. Unless I am missing something, Evers is the only NL 2nd baseman in the Hall that was a true contemporary of Doyle.

Average
Doyle .290
Evers .270

At Bats
Doyle 6509
Evers 6134

Runs
Doyle 960
Evers 919

Hits
Doyle 1887
Evers 1658

Doubles
Doyle 299
Evers 216

Triples
Doyle 123
Evers 70

Home Runs
Doyle 74
Evers 12 (Doyle hit 13 in 1911 alone)

RBI
Doyle 793
Evers 538

Stolen Bases
Doyle 298
Evers 324

I don't believe you can put someone in the Hall just because they are better than one other player that is already in. I'm just saying it is interesting to compare these two since they were such rivals (Cubs vs. Giants).

[Kenny Cole]

There is an argument for every name that has been thrown up thus far. However, notwithstanding the revamping of the veteran's committee so that the voters supposedly have more expertise on pre-1947 players then they did in the past, I'm not at all confident that they will ever elect any of the pre-1947 players.

What I suspect they will do this year is elect managers or executives who have been retired for 5 years or who are over 65, i.e., Torre and LaRussa, and call it good. I'm still trying to understand how lumping older living managers and excutives in with pre-1947 ballplayers makes sense, but that's how it is. I think what probably happened is that the HOF wanted to have someone elected from the committee and the powers that be felt that the managers and excutives had a better chance than did actual pre-1947 ballplayers. Sad as it is, that may well be right.

If the committee actually does manage to perform its function (which would be akin to the proverbial blind squirrel finding an acorn), I suspect that the most likely candidate to be elected, as a player, is Dahlen. As best as I can tell, he was highly regarded at the time and statistically, his numbers are pretty compelling.

[Joe_G.]

I'm with John Dreker and SABRs 19th century committee, but for slightly different reasons than John writes about. In short, Deacon was the best catcher in the game during the 1870s, an era in which the catcher was considered the most important position in baseball. Team success relied on having a quality catcher more so than any other position including pitcher. The danger level was truly off the charts in 1870 with Deacon moving up to behind the batter when runners were on base (a tactic credited to Deacon) with virtually no protective gear, and dealing with increasingly fast pitch speeds (fast enough for effective curve balls etc.). To add to his catching skills, Deacon was feared at bat, either leading or among the leaders with frequency (BA, RBIs, etc.). Deacon was the gold standard during the 1870s, the stuff of legend, but his position did take a toll and he had to re-invent himself for the 2nd half of his career, moving to 3rd base. In his later years, all the way up to the end when he was the oldest player in baseball, he posted respectable numbers. Bill James even rated him as top 100 3rd basemen (76th). Unfortunately, I believe he was best remembered for his less impressive performance from 1880-1890 as opposed to his superstar status from the late 1860s-1879.

For more info on Deacon including display of all 9 poses in the Old Judge set, visit this older link:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=126514

[MacDice]

No one. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Really Good. There is a reason why the veterans committee and the BBWAA have passed over these guys for over 50 years. Have their numbers improved over this time?

[alanu]

Originally Posted by wolfdogg

+1

+1 on Jimmy Ryan and would add George Van Haltren

[tedzan]

With a lifetime BA = .333 "Turkey" Donlin would have been a great candidate for the HOF had he taken his BB career more seriously. Instead of vaudville and the movies.






TED Z

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by MacDice

No one. It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Really Good. There is a reason why the veterans committee and the BBWAA have passed over these guys for over 50 years. Have their numbers improved over this time?

Never understood that phrase at all. Did the person who first came up with it, or anybody else who parrots it, ever think it through.

Does the word "Fame" translate into a definition I'm not aware of?


Carl Mays and Hippo Vaughn's numbers are still better then Waite Hoyt's and several others in the Hall. Have their numbers gotten worse?

[triwak]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

What I suspect they will do this year is elect managers or executives who have been retired for 5 years or who are over 65, i.e., Torre and LaRussa, and call it good. I'm still trying to understand how lumping older living managers and excutives in with pre-1947 ballplayers makes sense, but that's how it is. I think what probably happened is that the HOF wanted to have someone elected from the committee and the powers that be felt that the managers and excutives had a better chance than did actual pre-1947 ballplayers. Sad as it is, that may well be right.

Kenny, perhaps I'm reading the "new" rules incorrectly, but I believe the Vet's voting now is divided into 3 eras with 3 different committees: Pre-Integration (prior to 1947), Golden (1947-1972), and Expansion (1973-present). Each committee votes for ALL types of candidates from THAT era, including players, managers, executive/pioneers, and umpires. Torre and LaRussa will only be considered by the Expansion Era committee.

[oldjudge]

My friend Joe makes an excellent arguement for Deacon White. White was a .312 lifetime hitter and he had 988 RBIs in 1560 games. His RBI/game ratio is virtually the same as Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays, and only slightly behind 19th century slugger Roger Connor. These hitting achievements are no small feat for a man whose hands were no doubt routinely swolen for a significant part of his career from catching bare handed.

[GaryPassamonte]

Ross Barnes. He was simply the best player in the NA and is the only player to hit over .400 four times in his career.
As I've said prior, we have a preoccupation with stats when evaluating players of the earliest era. These players can not be judged by the benchmarks accepted for later players. Many played prior to the arrival of professionalism and the rules were different. I believe the period assessments given to early players by their peers hold a lot of weight, also. Anson, Spalding, and the Wrights all put Barnes at or near the top of their list when asked to name the greatest players of their era. It doesn't get any better than that.

[npa589]

Originally Posted by T205Guy

Ditto for Edward Marvin "Big Red" Reulbach! The Cubs could sure use him now...

...along with Cap Anson, Mordecai Brown, Rogers Hornsby, Hack Wilson, Gabby Hartnett, Kiki Cuyler, Burleigh Grimes, Ernie Banks, Ron Santo, Billy Williams, Bruce Sutter, Fergie Jenkins, Lee Smith, Ryne Sandberg, and Dennis Eckersley.

[CMIZ5290]

Getting back to this guy, i have no clue why he's not in the hall. I believe his career record was 182-106 with an era of 2.24....makes no sense at all

[tedzan]

I'm with you guys regarding Deacon White. Nevertheless, there appears to be times when who is selected for the HOF; and, who is not.....
is "arbitrary".

For example, Deacon's career .312 BA brings to mind Johnny Mize, who had an identical career .312 BA. Furthermore, Mize drove in 1337
Runs and scored 1118 Runs in 1884 games.
I am old enough to have seen Mize play (from 1947 - 1953), he was a tremendous clutch hitter with a lot of power. His #'s are impressive
and are better than quite a few who are in the HOF..........

100 - 138 RBI/year (8 seasons)

1337 = career RBI

.312 = BA

.562 = SLAvg

359 = HR

Yet, the HOF Committe overlooked Mize for many years. I never understood this....just as you guys can't understand what has prevented
Deacon White from being selected to the HOF.

Mize's vision was as keen as Ted Williams' vision. When Johnny hit 51 HR's in 1947, his K's were only 42. As far as power hitter's go, does
it get any better than that in Baseball......I don't think so ?

Yes, Johnny's in the HOF....but, he should have entered thru the "front door"; and, not via the Veteran's Committee in 1981.







TED Z

[glynparson]

does not mean greatest of the greats or best to ever play so i never really understood the its not the hall of very good argument. in fact that always seemed a little childish to me. I see Mr. Bergin beat me to this.

[triwak]

I second Ross Barnes!

[tbob]

Turkey Mike should be in.

[D. Bergin]

I find it odd that Reulbach's name is brought up repeatedly (rightfully so), and nobody else has mentioned fellow Cub Hippo Vaughn.

Stats are almost identical to Reulbach's, in a somewhat more hitter friendly era. Won 20 or more games 5 times, on Cubs teams inferior to the ones Reulbach pitched for.

Won the pitching triple crown in 1918. 2.49 Lifetime ERA.

[CMIZ5290]

Dave- great point about hippo vaughn. Just out of curiousity, does anyone know why he did not have a t206 card?? Where's ted z when you need him!

[gorrister]

Smokey Joe Wood