Opinions on a Pie Traynor autograph and much more

[RichardSimon]

This actual signed photo was shown to me today (not a scan, the actual photo) and I was asked to give my opinion on its authenticity.
What do you guys think?

[perezfan]

It looks pretty good to me, but would really help to see this one in person.

The condition is awfully perfect for a vintage piece.... almost looks pre-printed or like something that's manufactured. Perhaps it's just the scan. The letter formation and overall style are pretty convincing.

[jbsports33]

Most of the autographs I have seen do not have his first name included “Harold” and this would be a very high end auto. Have you had anyone look at this before?

Jimmy

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

This actual signed photo was shown to me today (not a scan, the actual photo) and I was asked to give my opinion on its authenticity.
What do you guys think?

Honestly, the only thing throwing me off is the T in Traynor. I haven't studied his first name that much, but the Pie looks good and the end r in Traynor looks typical, FWIW. The T looks a little "deliberate" to me and you don't see many of his T's signed like this, but then again if he's signing his full name he could make the T a little more fancy. His T's were usually bland like so:

[GrayGhost]

My vintage HOF and star ball I had a few months ago. had a Traynor EXACTLY like the index card. That one in the picture looks "too fancy" and I too don't like the T

[Shoeless Moe]

Anyone know the story?

[RichardSimon]

Ok,,, now for the full story.
The picture was shown to me today by a dealer.
He had bought it with the PSA COA that is illustrated here, cert #K77090.
The dealer sold it to a collector.
The collector who bought it sent it to JSA who turned it down.
I was asked for my opinion by the dealer who sold it.
This is a forgery, done many years ago by the infamous Ron Dross.
Dross was the first real forger in the baseball hobby.
The infamous B&W HOF plak scam (he got away with about $100K) was his doing but most people who are aware of that scam do not know that he also forged and sold a number of 8x10 B&W photos along with the plaks.
I saw most of the plaks and a few of the photos when they first hit the market and a few well known dealers were trying to sell these items.
Karma is a bitch though. Dross is no longer with us and passed away at a young age.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Anyone know the story?

There's different stories of how it was obtained, but all of them seem to lead back to his childhood.

[GrayGhost]

Wow. Another strike against the Alpha Bits pros

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Karma is a bitch though. Dross is no longer with us and passed away at a young age.

Did Dross forge any other players and when did he really start putting forgeries out on the market?

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Did Dross forge any other players and when did he really start putting forgeries out on the market?

I read somewhere that Dross did a lot of Mantle's also.. Do you think those ones you originally passed and have since changed your mind about on eBay are works of Dross?

[earlywynnfan]

OK, what am I missing? This guy is talented enough to do the "Pie" part and the "raynor" part nearly perfectly. Yet, instead of getting it right on the only part I could actually forge, a generic capital T, he makes it distinguishable to anyone who knows Traynor's sig??

Is this ignorance or arrogance?

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[mr2686]

Traynor had more than one type of T. The T in the forgery was like he signed his name early on until, I think, the 40's.

[RichardSimon]

Traynor did have more than one type of T.
No the photos of Mantle were not done by Dross.
Dross has been dead for some time.
Dross started out forging autograph cuts only.
This was approximately 20 years ago.
He forged mostly HOFers as far as I know.
Before I knew that he was a forger he actually bought some blank B&W plaks from me at a JFK airport show.
All of a sudden rumors were sweeping the hobby, this was about 17-18 yrs ago, that a big find had been made of B&W HOF plaks.
Many names were involved. The cards themselves were pure mint.
Dross got some dealer to be his front man, I forget who that was, and he sold many of the plaks to several dealers. The front man claimed he had collected these himself and now decided to sell them. This frontman left the hobby not long after this scam went down. One dealer in particular bought $80K worth and sight unseen, knowing what he was getting I ordered a number of them from that dealer. As soon as I got them though I realized they were fake and got out of my deal. There were many better names in the group of forgeries. I believe I still have photocopies of the forgeries and I will look for them tomorrow so I can list them here. One of the things to look out for is pure mint B&W Artvue HOF plaks. Many of these cards were shown to me afterwards at shows and many collectors did receive refunds when I told them they were not authentic.
The clever Mr Dross had been visiting Cooperstown and stumbled upon a store that had connections to the HOF. After the HOF switched to gold plaks they sold their remaining stock of B&W plaks to this store. All the plaks were shrink wrapped and stayed mint until the store owner put them out on his selling floor. One of the ironies of this scam was that none of the living HOFers at the time were part of this scam. The reason for that being that individuals who visited the store were buying up the living HOFers to mail to them for autographs.
Thus here was a huge group of HOF plaks but no DiMaggio, no Hubbell, etc. By the time Dross got to the store he could not buy any players who were still alive then because the store had sold out of those.
Some of these plaks are still in the hobby I would think.
I will try to find my photocopies and produce a list here tomorrow.

[packs]

I am curious as to whether this photograph was submitted for authentication by an auction house.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by packs

I am curious as to whether this photograph was submitted for authentication by an auction house.

Packs,
Look at the 7th post on the first page. The forged Traynor photo received PSA DNA authentication with a letter stating that it was real. Nice!!

[mr2686]

Richard, if possible, could you share with us any info that would help us tell that this is a forgery. Besides what we might not see (pen pressure, date of photo etc) is there something obvious? To the naked eye it looks pretty good although the H looks a little more ornate than usual. I don't want you to give away the farm but I'd sure like a little help if possible.

[RichardSimon]

Traynor's sig on this picture is ornate and is in felt tip pen, his signature stopped being ornate way before the felt tip pen era (which started in the 1960's). As you clearly stated in your earlier post, Traynor's ornate signature stopped being ornate way before the 1960's.
Dross probably only had ornate exemplars to work from.
When holding the picture in hand it is easier to see how labored and slowly written it is.
Also, when this scam broke I saw a few of the photos that were part of the scam and remember Traynor was one of them. I also remember Yawkey because it was so unusual to see him on a signed photo.
If memory is correct, Roush, L. Waner and Coveleski were part of this group of photos also. There were others that I don't remember but the vast majority of this scam was B&W plaks. I just found my photocopies of the plaks and will list them in a few minutes.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

No the photos of Mantle were not done by Dross.

Do you think you know who did those Mantles? I've got to believe Mick's signature is the most forged in the hobby. There is sooooo many fake Mantles out there.

[mr2686]

Thanks Richard!

[RichardSimon]

The following Artvue B&W plaks were part of this forgery scam,,, they were all Mint or very close to mint.
Roush, Clarke, Wheat, Lajoie, Jackie Robinson (signed Best Wishes), Connolly, Wallace, Lyons, Baker, Vance, Rice, McCarthy, Grove, Schalk, McKechnie, Simmons, Flick, Hartnett and Walsh.
These are all the photocopies I have but I seem to remember that Speaker had also been forged, though I am not positive about that.
If anyone here owns a mint Artvue plak with a signature of one of these HOFers, send me a scan and I will give you my opinion, based on your scan, if what you have was a part of this forgery lot. My e mail is richsprt@aol.com.
It is sad that this stuff is still around,, I saw the forged Traynor picture yesterday, almost two decades after I first saw it.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Do you think you know who did those Mantles? I've got to believe Mick's signature is the most forged in the hobby. There is sooooo many fake Mantles out there.

I know the signers of some of the fake Mantle signatures out there but not what you are referring to.

[Spahn21]

Richard,

You are correct on all accounts about that despicable 'collection' of fake 8x10's and B&W plaques which was at one time attributable to a "Bobby Moore".....They still pop up from time to time and many have been authenticated once or twice or more by various companies and/or individuals....Tris Speaker was part of the plaque group. Others who could not be on plaques like Weiss, and Yawkey, and Goslin (who is rarely found on a plaque) were also part of the 8x10 hoard. Ron Gordon had a list of the original offering and provided me with a copy of it years ago, though not sure where it is presently, and I recall that all names were offered in large quantities like 20-25-even 30 available of individual items. The now defunct company, National Pastime, purchased a large chunk of the collection. One of the qualities that seems to be present on all the plaques I've seen is that they are 'snow-white'--as if there isn't a day of aging to them and they came right off the press--Kevin Keating

[RichardSimon]

Snow white and right off the presses because they were kept shrink wrapped for years by the HOF and the store that bought them did not open the shrink wrap until they put them out on the store floor.
And you are right Bobby Moore rings a bell as the name of the front man.

[jb217676]

Here's my Pie Traynor autograph that was signed in the 1960's, has the plain looking "T" in his last name.

[chaddurbin]

good stuff richard, thank you!

[GrayGhost]

Awww. Jeff, the ball you got from Me. I miss it SO MUCH . I hope its doing ok.

[jb217676]

Ball is safe and sound Scott!

[Lordstan]

Kevin,
Welcome to the board. Always great to have knowledgeable people come on to the board. The more info shared the better.
Best,
Mark

Wow!
Ron Dross and Bobby Moore mentioned together in a thread. I just had a flashback. It's like Deja Vu all over again. I remember those plaques well. I have a 10-12 pages packet of photocopies around here somewhere of those. I don't remember Bobby Moore specifically being involved, but I do remember a binder with 4 pocket pages of those plaques coming to my table at one of the midtown Manhattan shows run by The National Pastime. It might have been a 3000hit show at the hotel across the street from MSG on 6th between 31st and 32nd.
The show was real PIA to get into as a dealer. Tiny elevators. If I remember correctly the Nat Past bought quite a bunch of that lot.

Ron was quite a piece of work. Really ballsy. A lot of people bought his stuff, because they wanted to believe it was real. The stuff he came up with was unreal. IIRC, he sold an Addie Joss cut in around 1982 about 2wks after he purchased some old Sporting News papers.

Mark Vel@rde