My new Lajoie - any thoughts on alteration? (F/B scans included)

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Posted By: Jason L

I would like to solicit opinions from the experienced T206 collectors here on the Board about this card.

Is it altered?
(I was wary of the uneven wear on the corners)

Anyone think it was washed?
(looks awfully clean)

If anyone has any reservations about speaking up...don't worry - I just bought it, so you won't be ruining any transactions for anyone but me!

Thanks!
Jason L

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edited to add back scan

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Posted By: leon

I am not a T206 expert but have handled quite a few....and quite a few pre- war cards in general. My concern with your card is that the corners look clipped. If you think about wear, it doesn't happen with no frayed edges. Those corners look rounded but there is no fraying. That's not a good sign....It looks like it could be a little short top to bottom too ....but my main concern is the corners....regards

edited to add...the colors look fine to me...

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

We need more info.....a scan of the back of this card is important factor.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...for me include uneven corner wear and the top border. Nevertheless, I think it is more probably untrimmed than trimmed -- I'd go 75%-80% sure in that regard. If it was a raw card in that state, I would go a bit less; even though I distrust PSA's grading of T206 cards, they get it right most of the time.

The "cleanness" of the card is not a concern for me.

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Posted By: leon

You definitely know more about T206's than I but those corners look ok to you? They look kind of rounded to me with no fraying. That would be some unique natural wear....

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Posted By: T206Collector

...are pretty typical wear for T206 cards. I have some nice T206 cards with corners completely rounded off. This Bender was one of my first two T206 cards. I acquired it in 1997 from the grandson of what I believe was the original owner. In any event, he had a bunch of raw T206 cards in a cigar box and I plucked this one and my SGC 60 White Capped Matty -- they got me started down this road.

Anyway, you can see the uneven corner rounding as well as no evidence of fraying. I think it is pretty typical.



Now, the Lajoie above does not look like that, and as I said the uneven corner wear is a concern. But if you read SGC Collector Magazine's profile on trimming T206 cards, you'll see that most of the evidence is not going to be available in a scan from the front -- the key is in the edges.

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Posted By: JK

I dont think that the scan is detailed enough to say that there is no fraying of the corners. Ive got several t206s like the one posted by t206 collecter with corner wear and no real evidence of fraying. In short, I dont think the card looks trimmed, but I agree that a scan of the back would be more helpful.

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Posted By: Jason L

for all the input thus far.

I will try to get a scan of the back up shortly (these are the seller's photos, as I have not yet taken delivery)
doesn't sound too promising so far on the alteration front, although at least nice to hear I probably don't need to worry about the coloration and soaking/cleaning issue.

I did try to buy the card and not the holder, but I may have failed on this front...(yes, it's in a PSA holder)...was hoping for the best, not having seen bat-ears and the like that I had read about

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Posted By: T206Collector

...makes me more uncomfortable about the top border.

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Posted By: leon

On the back scan doesn't that top right corner look "cut" to you? Or maybe it's just me......Probably too difficult to tell from the scan but I have had enough clipped corner cards to know they look at least similar to that one.....best regards

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Posted By: Jason L

about the top border...why so?

Leon, regarding the back, if the top right is clipped, doesn't the bottom left also look similar?

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Posted By: leon

Yes, but these guys know more than I do about T206's....The corners, from the scan, just don't look right to me.....but I have been wrong before and your card is probably good. I do agree that PSA gets it right most times, especially on stuff other than super high end cards..(and I know there is disagreement on that but that is my opinion).....regards

edited to add one more thing...it's not the rounding of the corners that has me concerned it's the "pointiness" of them in relation to the wear...

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

At the top it seems the corners just stop instead of completing the arc you would expect of a rounded corner; which is the effect you would get if a rounded corner was trimmed at the top cutting off the last bit of the wear. I think this is what L is referring to when he says they look clipped. Then again I am far from expert. Compare with Paul's Bender where there is a complete look to each slightly rounded corner.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I see nothing wrong with this card....in fact, if I read the bottom line on the back correctly......
Jason, you have one of the tougher backs of this card.

The Sweet Caporal, Factory #25 back is seldom seen. Most of these Lajoie's have Sweet Cap
350 back that are Factory #30.

Enjoy it....it's a clear looking picture and a tough card, with respect to it's back.

TED Z

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

Unless it's an obvious hack job you would need to look at the edges under a halogen...it's the only way to tell for sure.

Like the others said, from a straight scan it looks good.

Kevin

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Posted By: T206Collector

...that the rounding on the corners comes to an angle on the top border before completing each corner's arcs, moving from side edges to top. People trim cards to sharpen rounded corners -- this looks like what you would see in such an instance of trimming.

I still think it is more likely not trimmed than trimmed, but I'd be only at 65%-70% certainty at this point.

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Posted By: Jason L

Well, I have to say that, I would be very surprised if this card is altered.
Corner wear looks reasonable, and there actually is a very tiny amount of fraying at the corners - not visible on the scan.

I will say that I was disappointed to find that the white borders in the scan are not nearly so white in person, so the scan is cleaner than the card

It may be slightly over-graded (It's in a PSA 4 holder), but overall, the more I look at this card, the more enamored I become...

Thank you to everyone for their opinions.

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Posted By: PC

The corners are rounded, but not evenly frayed. I think this "clipped corner" appearance can be explained by the corners being dinged -- as if someone tapped the card on each corner on a hard surface (desk or table) while (mis)handling it. You can see evidence of that on the back scan, in the darker areas where it looks like the corners are pushed in and over.

There even appears to be a small crease/bend in some of the corners (the two bottom corners show this pretty clearly), immediately behind the flat areas, which would indicate that the card took a hit or two on the corners.

Admittedly, this kind of wear is a little unusual, but the card looks unaltered to me.

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Posted By: Jason L

in person, it is very evident that the corners got dinged or crunched a bit

New problem: There's a surface wrinkle in it that starts at his hands and curves up and to the right...just found it while looking at it in bright sunlight.

Can a PSA 4 have a wrinkle?

If not, looks like I got shafted here...

edited to add: I cannot check the PSA website myself here at work due to corporate firewall restrictions...can someone help me on that?

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Posted By: Dave F

Jason...I've had PSA 5's with a wrinkle. To me, a wrinkle is far from a crease.

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Posted By: JK

Jason,

PSA routinely grades 4s that have small wrinkles as you have described. Ive had several. I dont know if its within their tolerences or if they just miss them (wasnt there a post last week suggesting that PSA cards are rarely looked at with loupes?). The only problem you will have is if you intend to cross it to SGC. SGC is much tougher IMO on wrinkling and usually will not grade a card higher than a 40 if it has a surface wrinkle (disclaimer - this is based on my experience as I cross everything I get to SGC and have numerous psa cards that have failed to cross for that reason. I am not trying to suggest that SGC never misses things, etc.).

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Posted By: Jason L

helpful...

I am surprised I found it, as it is in a really tough place to spot because it follows along one of the image's lines (a fold of his uniform)...you won't ever find it without a loupe and/or bright bright light at the right angle.

I brought the card to work with me for the day just so I could take a peek at it every so often (Bet you didn't know it was "Take your T206 to work Day" ?!?!?)...and I have to say that my attitude is: screw it, I'm keeping it!!!

I become more enamored with it every time I look at it, and I ain't ever selling it, so I guess it doesn't make much sense to get too bent out of shape for paying $395 in an escalating market, with an infinite holding period, right? Most of the PSA3 or equivalents look a good deal worse than this one anyway...

Did you know that Nap was the first major leaguer to draw an intentional walk with the bases loaded?

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Posted By: T206Collector

"Jason...I've had PSA 5's with a wrinkle. To me, a wrinkle is far from a crease."

My PSA 5's with wrinkles did not cross over to SGC. That is consistent with my understanding of an EX card -- corner wear, but no wrinkles/creases.

But I've got some SGC 50's with light wrinkles or small creases or whatever you wanna call them.