Clemente: Inner circle of the elite, or on his way?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Jesus H....he didn't have the stats? Why, because he didn't hit 400 home runs? Clemente said that he purposely put hitting for average above going for power because he felt it would help his team more.

This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

Originally Posted by the 'stache

So, tell me again how Clemente wasn't an elite Hall of Famer?

Clemente wasn't an "inner circle" HOFer. As in, naming the five or ten best players of all-time - he ain't on the list. Obviously, he was a great player. No one is denying that. But he also wasn't one of the absolute greatest and isn't in that conversation. If you're not in the conversation, you're not inner circle. That's not an insult. Not everybody gets to sit at the table with Ruth, Mays and Mantle.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Not everybody gets to sit at the table with Ruth, Mays and Mantle.

I am thinking Mantle shouldn't be sitting at that table either.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I am thinking Mantle shouldn't be sitting at that table either.

Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.

Mantle, like Bonds, drew a phenomenal number of walks.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Career 172 OPS+, good for 7th all-time. 6th if you ignore Mike Trout. The other five are Barry Bonds and four guys whose careers started (or ended) before WW2. Led the league in that category 8 times.

Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy.

Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated.

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

Bill James ranked Mantle 6th.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill James ranked Mantle 6th.

How long ago?

Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

How long ago?

Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers.

2002 I believe. I would not rank him quite that high myself, but Bill James certainly knows a lot about baseball.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

You seem to want to put him "at the table" with the 5 or 10 greatest players to ever play the game. If that is the case, he doesn't get a seat. Sorry. 5 or 10 best post WW2 players? Absolutely. No question. 5 or 10 best ever?

Nope.

Absolutely he's at the table with the top 10 players all-time*.

Again, 7th all-time in OPS+, 6th if you only count retired guys. And he played, by far, the most valuable defensive position of the 6. And was good at it.

* - Yes, I am accounting for pitchers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It only makes sense if you are going to be a failure at going for power.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

I think it absolutely makes sense, especially looking at the garbage numbers we are seeing around the league as players swing for the fences and set record breaking strike out pacing as they do. Yes, a single to left regularly is better than only 3 and outs with a hr every other game or so. Small ball may be boring to some, but it's a lost art in today's game.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Tabe

This is just stupid. Sure thing, Roberto, a single to left is more valuable than a home run. Gimme a break. It made no sense then, it makes no sense now.

I can't disagree more with this sentiment. All you have to do is look around the league today and count the number of "power hitters" who are sitting on averages under 230 to know there's nothing all that great about hitting a home run once in a while.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.

Still better than Daniel Simpson Day's

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.

I'll always be Joey's #1 fan. Love the guy. He hit an amazing home run over the light pole in RF at Avista as an 18-year old member of the Spokane Indians. I don't think the ball has landed yet. Just an unreal bomb that no one has even come close to matching in my 20 years of attending games.