Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI

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Posted By: Bob

I think we should not be too quick to pull the trigger on Mastro. The FBI will investigate and it has been my experience that if an indictment results, they have the goods, but if not it will fade away. I echo the sentiments of a prior post that the feds (at least in this Circuit) rarely proceed in any case unless they believe they have an air tight case. While State prosecutors often file and even take cases to court which have holes and are shakey, the feds (again at least here) rarely do so. They are very slow to indict but when they do, they normally not only have pictures of the hand in the cookie jar, they have the jar and hand itself. If you don't have a legitimate 4th Amendment issue, you are generally scrod because they do their homework and are not sloppy.

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Posted By: PSpaeth

Daniels' statement makes no sense to me. If his suit against Mastro was for misrepresentation, and presumably damages (difference between what he paid and what he got) or rescission, what difference would it make who else bid or how much? Probably if asked to produce this Mastro legitimately objected on relevance grounds.

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Posted By: David Bowden

As a new member to this board I'm sure what I say has as much relevence to many members as a complete set of 1990 Donruss. When I first started being a lurker a few months ago there was an attempt by Leon to keep the board vintage related without all the bickering. I sent Leon an email thanking him because I wanted to learn about vintage and not learn about members personal attacks. I must say I was shocked to see Leons last post. I love that the forum owner posts but telling someone to shut up just made him look as bad if not worse than others.IMO I would figure he should be the most reasonable, but what do I know. This board has great people but they just don't seem to act it all the time. If there is an investigation than it is relevant to this board and should be talked about , if it was from last year or today. I have had enough of this and would like to get back to the hobby I enjoy.

David Bowden

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Lawyers,

What do you think of Leon's point that if there was really an FBI investigation of Mastro Auctions that the president would know about it?? Couldn't investigation be proceeding without knowledge of company?

Jim

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Let's say there is an ongoing investigation. Presumably if Mastro Auctions did all these bad things, then ultimately there will be an indictment, trial and conviction. Can't we just in the meantime give them the presumption of innocence that in America any company/individual is entitled to? There will be plenty of time later if they are ultimately found guilty to express our views.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I suspect that if the NY Daily News (or whatever paper is publishing the alleged investigation) is publishing untruths, it will be met with a lawsuit from the party about which it is writing.

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Posted By: leon

I respect your thoughts and believe it or not my angst was because I do want to get back to talking about the hobby, not hearsay from a reporter. If there has been an investigation then it's been going on for a year with nothing yet to indict on...and the folks being investigated have never been questioned. Please continue if you want to .....I really am just frustrated and you should know that I won't squelch what anyone has to say if they put their name by it.......best regards

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Posted By: Jim Dale

There is no reason to assume the FBI would notify the company. A lot of times federal warrants are issued to obtain records from businesses and that is often when they learn of a pending investigation.

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Jim,
Most likely, the president of the company would be the first to know. Then he'd refer the FBI to that company's attorneys.

It seems like common sense that if a company is being investigated by the FBI, the very first person to know is the president. Who else would be the first to have knowledge of a pending investigation? Joe Mailroom guy?

On a side note, when an individual is being investigated by the grand jury, the U.S. Attorney's office for that district sends a letter informing that individual of the ongoing investigation.

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Posted By: peter chao

Could be Bill Mastro has been instructed by his attorney to simply not comment. Makes a lot of business sense.

Peter

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thanks Peter(and others) for the insights--guess the bottom line is entirely possible the investigation is going on and Doug does not know.

Love your all-star game and greatest infield posts--although they are off topic sure that Leon would rather see anything than more posts about card restoration or about Mastro.

Jim

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Posted By: peter chao

I suppose I've always had problems with what people consider hobby-related. I think of the all-star game as being hobby-related because they started before WWII. A clear definition would be helpful. I suppose there are people who think that this thread is only marginally related to the hobby.

Peter

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

If I remember correctly the focus of the board is on vintage cards. I personally don't care and just read what I am interested in but I think each of your posts would be considered off topic by Leon.

Jim

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Posted By: Bob

What do you think of Leon's point that if there was really an FBI investigation of Mastro Auctions that the president would know about it?? Couldn't investigation be proceeding without knowledge of company?>

I find it hard to believe the president and CEO would know nothing about the investigation.

Could be Bill Mastro has been instructed by his attorney to simply not comment. Makes a lot of business sense.>

Absolutely. I am guesing Bill and Doug Allen have both been instructed to stay mum at this time.

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Posted By: leon

I can speak for myself, thank you. The first 2 sentences at the top of the page say what this forum is about...The farther we stray from that premise the less I like it....warm regards


"Hello to all visitors! This is a moderated forum for the discussion of primarily Pre-WWII baseball cards and related topics"

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Posted By: whitehse

Just a thought but do you think that Mr Mastro is avoiding all of this because he is on his way out of Mastro?? I have been told that he was bought out and is just waiting the final payment and he will no longer be a part of Mastro. This was told to me by someone who should know!! so do you think maybe he is just laying low, getting his money and running like a sissy!!??

Is this old news and maybe I just have not read it somewhere??

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Posted By: peter chao

If you are not a reporter, you can give us your source.

Peter

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Posted By: whitehse

I would rather not say it on the board. I can assure you my source is someone everyone has heard of and someone who should know.

I just assumed this was common knowledge. Did I assume wrong?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

Leon says he can speak for himself.

Go get em.

Jim

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Posted By: peter chao

We are all just giving our opinions there is no reason to jump on people for their opinions. Let's remain civil.

Peter

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

Amen--couldn't agree more.

Jim

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon is wrong when he claimed that Doug's comment about not knowing about a federal investigation equates to the lack of an investigation. A lawsuit would have already been filed by Mastro against the Daily News for libel if no such investigation is underway (in my opinion). Leon, prove you wrong? Should I contact the FBI myself and ask them to make public their investigation? As I said days ago, let Randy Mastro or Doug Allen come on this board and claim that they have not a scintialla of information that an FBI investigation is underway against Mastro. They won't because it would be a lie.

All that being said, the only pertinent thing here is that an investigation is underway. If Mastro is cleared then good for them, good for us and we can all breathe a sigh of relief. If not, the chips will fall where they fall. But raising concern about Mastro's involvement in shill bidding due to a pending FBI investigation is not un-American; we're not convicting them -- we're simply expressing our concern considering our own finanical exposures here. That is a normal, prudent thing to do, correct? If Leon was arrested for molesting a child (sorry Leon, just using you as a for instance) would we rush to send our kids over to his house to be babysat? Course not. Would we stand by him and support his legal fight to clear his name? Of course we would. Let's not confuse concern with the current investigation of Mastro with unfairly convicting them before any indictment has been secured.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Jeff,
I'm not a lawyer, but isn't being under investigation totally different than someone being arrested and charged with a crime? Be well Brian

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Great post Jeff--thanks.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Brian, of course. That's my point, exactly: I don't think Mastro should be convicted before they're even charged; however, it is certainly prudent to be wary over the allegations of shill bidding.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Jeff,

Fair enough. But it seems a number of people have moved beyond the "expressing concern" point to the "already convicted" point.

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Posted By: jay behrens

And then there is the other end of that spectrum....Leon defending them.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I don't think anyone is convicting Mastro Auctions--I know I am not. I think Jeff put the proper balance on things. The strongest position as been our moderator vehemently defending the company.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Let's give Leon a chance to respond as soon as he finishes with the Hunt Boston Garters -- I just failed to win the Cobb as the underbidder.....and now I feel sick. Whoever won it please contact me for the chance to visit it.

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Posted By: Jerry Hrechka

Until Mastro acknowledges their screw ups and corrects their mistakes I have a tendency to believe the allegations against them.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jeff- what did the Cobb sell for?

And are you joining us next week?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Barry, I bought a new blackberry today and cannot figure out how to use it, hence my lack of responses. Not sure yet about next week but would like to see Brooklyn other than the inside of its courthouses.

The Cobb went for just under 100K.

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Posted By: Don Poley

Hi all-

Often (but not always) the party being investigated will receive a "target letter" from the feds putting them on notice of the investigation and ordering them to retain all records, computer files, etc. This also gives the feds additional grounds (obstruction) to go after the target if the party trashes the hard drive, shreds documents, or otherwise impedes the investigation.

If Doug's quote about no knowledge of an investigation is correct I think it's too early to surmise that Mastro is a target of the investigation, and the reporter may just be reading tea leaves or he may have an ax to grind with Mastro.

Just my two cents.

Don

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Don, alas I think the days of 'target' and 'subject' letters are a thing of the past. I remember as a young lawyer asking my boss about the difference between the two and being told that one can go from being a subject to a target in the blink of an eye. I can't imagine that the Daily News writer would just invent witnesses who have claimed to have been interviewed by the FBI about Mastro. However, in fairness to Mastro, the fact that this investigation limps along in its plodding manner does not suggest to me that the feds consider Bill Mastro on the level of Bin Laden. I mean, yet.

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Posted By: David Smith

When Christies and Sothebys were being investigated, how long did that take??


David

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I think I'd be alot more interested if the chief complainer (oh my legalese ) wasn't a guy who claims he was ripped off over smudgy/a couple possibly forged/ autos....I mean, who's ever heard of that being a dodgy part of the hobby. And then I fail to see where he mentions that James Spence backs him up on his assertions???

So we have Mastro refusing to listen to his moaning and supply him with underbidder information - well I wouldn't either without some prodding/support from another hobby expert regarding the supposedly falsely advertised lot.
And this weenie is the guy who's the chief bitcher in this process, hmmm, thus far I like Mastro the better of the two.



JMO.

Daniel

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Not sure what's wrong if someone, be it our moderator or someone else, defends the company. There are enough people blasting the company, so it seems to me if someone defends it this thread might have a bit more balance.

From another perspective, as I understand what Jeff says, a reason he introduced the thread was to express concern over the pending investigation, which is germane to those people who bid in their auctions. Inasmuch as Mastro auctions will continue to take place while the investigation lingers, I see nothing wrong with someone in the meantime expressing his views that people have nothing to fear by continuing to bid. Yes, I understand that Leon does get advertising revenue from Mastro so therefore to some his views might be tainted. That is a legitimate point to raise. But Leon has never attempted to hide that fact; therefore no one is being mislead about the potential for bias on his part. One thing about Leon that I have noted over the few years I have been a lurker/participant on this board is that he does seem to call it as he sees it, often being very critical of friends and advertisers. He and I are friends but sometimes he has said things about things I wrote that I felt like picking up the phone and asking him how his thought process was functioning that day. I certainly think he deserves the benefit of the doubt that his position here is not tainted by some small amount of advertising revenue.

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Posted By: P Spaeth

Perhaps there is more to it, but I can't say I am impressed when the sources of charges of shill bidding are a disgruntled dealer in litigation with Mastro who supposedly identified ONE consignor who bid on his own items (based on what?) and someone who won lots with misappropriated state funds.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think to judge the allegations and evidence on the merits of two newspaper articles isn't fair. No one here knows what the full allegations are or the evidence. Therefore, to dismiss what has been leaked already is not based on reality. That being said, let the process go forward but just be wary with Mastro.

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Posted By: P Spaeth

Jeff, thus my initial disclaimer "perhaps there is more to it," my only point being that what is public ain't much.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Peter,

You know what I want to say at this point, but I just can't bring myself to say it.

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Posted By: Cat

I buy a lot from Mastro, but have never consigned an item to them.

I always tend to let what I know overrule speculation. We have had many come on this board and declare that they have offered high autobids which ultimately did not reach the maximum. That's very good evidence.

As others have said, one disgruntled buyer who declares that "he gave them a name" of someone that bid on his/her own item seems fairly pathetic as a basis for an FBI investigation. Sheeesh, from one standpoint, I hope there is more.

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Posted By: Joe D.

sorry to hear you missed out on that cobb (sweet card).

but... if you take that money over to the Brooklyn burger place next week - I'll sell you something much nicer*


*Nicer is a subjective term. The above statement is in no way a guarantee of card niceness. The only guarantees in the above statement are brooklyn and burger.

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Posted By: Anonymous

edited due to anonymity

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Posted By: barrysloate

You may not be a fan of grading, as are many on the board, but why must the auction house be eliminated? That seems rather extreme.

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Posted By: P Spaeth

I would eliminate any auction house convicted of taking steroids.

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Posted By: peter chao

According to you, how did the grading services create the downfall of the coin hobby?

Peter

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

about Mastro's shill bidding misappropriated state funds. This is true as far as I have read and researched. However, it DOES seem like Bill Mastro knew this at the time and even dealt with this individual DIRECTLY b/c of this fact! Thus, one would conclude that if Mastro did shill bid this person, it was probably b/c he thought he would not get caught (afterall, who was going to tell authorities at the time - the person using misappropriated funds?). I can vouch that I have won a few lots from Mastro over the past year below my max bid. However, I was not dealing directly with Bill Mastro and using funds Mastro seemed to know were being misapprpriated. I would also think there is probably some sort of a law somewhere that makes it illegal to accept funds known to be misappropriated state money. Afterall there are so many laws I don't really know about and I am not about to research it.

I agree that we are all suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. However, as everyone here knows, this country does not work that way or people would not be held incarcerated until a court date. We can all speculate here one way or another. My mind was made up last Winter about Mastro Inc.'s ethics when Doug Allen came on this very board and admitted to altering cards before having them graded - you can say they only do a tier or this or that. However, bottom line - it is altering to change the card before grading in order to receive a higher grade!

The thing I think that looks REALLY bad on Mastro on this one is the "secret" relationship and bidding process that was going on between Bill Mastro and this person misappropriating funds!

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Posted By: P Spaeth

Scott, what is your basis for claiming Mr. Mastro knew the individual at issue and knew he was bidding with misappropriated funds? (Apologies if I am misreading your post but I think that is what you are saying?)

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

that Mastro had a "Secret" relationship. According to what I have read on this, Bill Mastro was the ONLY person who was allowed to take bids from this individual due to the nature of the money involved. I was simply going by what I read.

I figured one of you attorneys would ask a question like that - you guys/gals are too easy to predict!