WWI/The Great War

[mintacular]

As a collector of primarily "post-war" cards I know that there were many careers disrupted by WWII (Williams, Mays, etc) so my question is: What pre-war player careers (if any) were largely impacted by WWI? Thanks.

[Tim Kindler]

Old Cardboard, issue #3 I think, had a great article on this subject. Edited: I just looked it up and it was Issue #2

Eddie Grant died in France, Christy Mathewson would soon die from exposure to toxic gasses in a drill, Grover Cleveland drank alot more after seeing the horrors in the trenches, Cobb, Branch Rickey, and many others served.

[Abravefan11]

Hank Gowdy - He was the first major league player to enlist.

If you don't know his story it's well worth the read.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/trea...ont2002b.shtml

[jlynch1960]

I can't find Tim's reference above, but I think he hit the highlights.

Mathewson and Grant were finished as players before they enlisted so their careers were not interrupted. I believe Grant was the only player to be killed n action. There was apparently a plaque dedicated to him at the Polo Grounds. I have this vague recollection that this surfaced in a memorabilia auction not too long ago.

Mathewson and Cobb served in the same mustard gas unit, I believe, under Branch Rickey. Mathewson was exposed to the stuff and subsequently developed tuberculosis. He died of it in 1925 during the world series of that year. According to the Ken Burns' Baseball film, players from both teams wore black armbands to commemorate his death. Somehow Cobb got off easy and was sent home after a couple of months in France.

Of the more well know players from the era, Alexander seems to have had a hard time of it. He was drafted, served as an artillery officer, suffered severe shell shock and was made nearly deaf. He drank very heavily afterward and became prone to seizures. He played with the Cubs until 1926 when he was traded to the Cards and won two games in the series against the Yanks and made a tremendous effort in relief in game seven (completely hungover) for a stunning upset of the Yanks.

No doubt a number of less well know players served as well. It would be interesting to know who they werel.

[scooter729]

The 1918 baseball season was cut short, due to many players having to enlist in the war. The World Series was held in early September that year, I believe so players would be able to go fight in the war.

I recently read a book on Red Sox history which alluded to the fact that many Red Sox players did not enlist and continued to play ball, which led to two things: 1) fans being upset against the Red Sox for not enlisting when other players from other teams were serving, and 2) the Red Sox ran up a great record that season, using most of their regulars against other teams using replacement players for their stars who were serving.

[drc]

Many players were soldiers, but the American involvement in the war was short compared to WWII.

[iggyman]

In Ty Cobb's autobiography (My Life In Baseball) he describes the details of what happened on that eventful day when both he and Mathewson were exposed to mustard gas. Here is a quick read (with neat pictures):

http://www.baseballinwartime.com/chemical_warfare.htm

And since we are sorta' talking about baseball and WWI, I would recommend this book: "The Tour to End All Tours: The Story of Major League Baseball’s 1913-1914 World Tour,” written by James E. Elfers. Here is a quick summary:

http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2004/b...913071003.html

I really have no idea how people used to live without google.......must have been a primative time to live in???

Lovely Day...

[ErikV]

I'm aware that Shoeless Joe Jackson and his teammate, Lefty Williams were called into service in the middle of the 1918 season. They both worked in the shipyards and played ball in the military. Evidentially, their "military service" was frowned upon by some, including their boss, Charles Comiskey.

[Cat]

Sam Rice served in both WW1 and the War of Veracruz.

[prewarsports]

I find it fascinating how few Baseball players served during World War 1 (even former players)and how many Football stars served during the Great War. Several College Football Hall of Famers served and died during the War or were gassed like Mathewson and died shortly afterwards. Johnny Poe the great Princeton back of the 1890's was a Rough Rider with Teddy Roosevelt in the Spanish American War and then died as a hero in World War 1. There are many others as well like Garrett Cochran and Charlie Barrett (both died) and even Fritz Pollard the NFL Hall of Famer (did not die) and Hobey Baker the Football great and Hockey Hall of Famer (He did die). I am not sure of the reason behind it, maybe because so many Football stars were Ivy Leaguers and it was more expected from that social class at that time, but I have no real reason why.

Rhys Yeakley

[ErikV]

Did a little more research and found former
Detroit Tiger (1912) Bun Troy and former
Yankee (1914) Alex Burr were both killed in
the final month of WWI. Hope this helps.

[Rich Klein]

Could it be that it was actually considered a "priveldge" to serve. After all, it was also very similar with WW2, which were both reasonably popular wars.

I don't know, but I suspect serving your country in times of need is an honor. I'm sure someone has done an article or book on that subject. That might be worth a google check as well

Rich

[daveobrien]

Had these stubs for awhile, reading this thread I realized that they are probably a WW1 military unit baseball team.

[tbob]

1) Matty never saw live action in Europe as a soldier. His death was as a result of a tragic and sad training fiasco.
2) The first draft was passed very late in the war, unlike WW2. Most Americans felt this was "Europe's war" and were reluctant to fight. There was sympathy for the Germans not only because of the large German-American population in the U.S. but also many Irish-Americans despised the British. The Allies had a very successful well-tooled propaganda machine which centered on atrocities in Belgium by German soldiers (retaliating for sniper file from civilians on their troops) and the sinking of the Luisitania in which some American passengers died (now it has been discovered that there were actually large shipments of armaments aboard headed to England), but it was not until the famous "Zimmerman telegram" in which a German official promised Mexico huge chunks of land in the Southwest if they attacked America that sentiment changed.
I think the general sentiment prior to that time was to follow George Washington's old urgent plea to "avoid foreign entaglements at all costs." This might have played a part in American ballplayers following the lead of many non-sporting men to avoid the war.
P.S. I have no axe to grind here, my grandfather and his little brother both volunteered and heroically fought in the War for the United States, being decorated for bravery at the front, despite the fact their parents were immigrants from Axis countries (Germany and Austria).

[bmarlowe1]

"the sinking of the Luisitania in which some American passengers died (now it has been discovered that there were actually large shipments of armaments aboard headed to England), "

This is way O/T but, no - this hasn't been proven. All that has been proven is that there was a sizeable shipment of rifle bullets (as indicated on the ship's cargo list). Rumors of a large amount of high explosives has never been proven.

[howard38]

American sentiment was already unalterably turning against Germany before the Zimmerman telegram was made public. The telegram (assuming it was authentic) was was sent only after Germany repudiated the Sussex Pledge and resumed unrestricted submarine warfare in January 1917 thus ensuring America's entry into the war.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

"the sinking of the Luisitania in which some American passengers died (now it has been discovered that there were actually large shipments of armaments aboard headed to England), "

This is way O/T but, no - this hasn't been proven. All that has been proven is that there was a sizeable shipment of rifle bullets (as indicated on the ship's cargo list). Rumors of a large amount of high explosives has never been proven.

Divers for the owners of the Luistania found large numbers of munitions in areas where cargo was not being carried. It is now definitively believed that there were hidden armament munitions on the ship.
The British government has always been evasive about the presence of munitions on Lusitania. Two cargo manifests were submitted; the second, filed after the ship sailed, indicated there were light munitions on board. Some believe the ship was carrying much more, however, and that the British Navy attempted to destroy the wreck in the 1950s to conceal its military cargo.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by howard38

American sentiment was already unalterably turning against Germany before the Zimmerman telegram was made public. The telegram (assuming it was authentic) was was sent only after Germany repudiated the Sussex Pledge and resumed unrestricted submarine warfare in January 1917 thus ensuring America's entry into the war.

I disagree. Sentiment may have been turning but even before the release of the telegram, there was still a very strong isolationistic feeling in the United States.
On February 24 Britain released the Zimmerman telegram to Wilson, and news of the telegram was published widely in the American press on March 1. The telegram had such an impact on American opinion that, according to David Kahn, author of The Codebreakers, "No other single cryptanalysis has had such enormous consequences." It is his opinion that "never before or since has so much turned upon the solution of a secret message." On April 6, 1917, the United States Congress formally declared war on Germany and its allies. The Zimmerman telegram clearly had helped draw the United States into the war and thus changed the course of history.

[bmarlowe1]

"Divers for the owners of the Luistania found large numbers of munitions in areas where cargo was not being carried. It is now definitively believed that there were hidden armament munitions on the ship."

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What is your source? Definitively believed by whom? While it is possible, it has not been proven.

[jbsports33]

Scott is right even though I am a Red Sox fan, there was a lot surrounding the Red Sox that year and maybe they would not have won the WS if some went off to World War I - great topic to discuss

Jimmy

[PolarBear]

There's a book called "The Original Curse" that speculates the Cubs threw the 1918 series. Haven't read it but it looks interesting.

[tbob]

Munitions Found on the Lusitania
Wednesday December 24, 2008
On May 7, 1915, the RMS Lusitania was sunk by a German U-boat during World War I. Of the 1,959 people on board, 1,198 died in this disaster. When the U.S. heard that 128 of the dead were Americans, they were furious. Although the Germans had claimed that the Lusitania was a valid military target because it had been war materials, popular belief at the time was that it was solely a passenger vessel. The sinking of what seemed a completely neutral ship, spurred the U.S. to enter into World War I against the Germans.
Recently, divers explored the wreckage of the Lusitania, situated eight miles off of the coast of Ireland. In the hold of the Lusitania, the divers found approximately four million rounds of U.S.-made Remington .303 bullets. The discovery supports Germany's claim that the Lusitania had been used to shuttle war materials. The find also supports the theory that the second explosion on the Lusitania was caused by munitions on board rather than a second torpedo from the U-boat.

The book Seven Days to Disaster by Colin Simpson explores the hidden munitions argument. Colin Simpson claims that LUSITANIA received a secret modification as well--the installation of twelve 6-inch guns. His principal sources for this are a German named Curt Thummel who served briefly as a steward on LUSITANIA while secretly in the employ of the German military attache in the United States, Franz von Papen. Thummel reported to the German consulate in New York that he had seen four guns on LUSITANIA. Another German, Gustav Stahl, filed an affidavit after the sinking claiming that while helping a friend load baggage on LUSITANIA he had seen concealed guns.
Finally, we have a mysterious "lady whose family to this day forbid her name to be mentioned, possibly because one of them in due course became a President of the United States." Her letter, found in Secretary Lansing's private papers, claims that while she was having tea in London with Clementine Churchill, Admiral Fisher stopped in. She asked the Admiral for help in getting a passage to New York. Fisher told her that she should travel on LUSITANIA or OLYMPIC, because both had a concealed armament. She took LUSITANIA and inquired of a steward about the concealed guns. "The steward, realizing her connections, showed her how the decks could be lifted to reveal the gun rings and confided that it would take about twenty minutes to 'wheel the guns into position.'" While in Simpson's book this woman's story is only one of several on LUSITANIA's armament, in a letter to Life magazine, quoted by Bailey and Ryan, this becomes his accepted version: the guns "were stored in the forward part of the shelter deck, which was sealed off from the rest of the ship by the Admiralty. If the need arose, the guns could be wheeled out of their hiding place and mounted on their rings in 20 minutes.'"

We will probably never know the real truth about the concealed guns but the fact that Lusitania AT LEAST carried 4,000,000 bullets and other explosives (this is uncontroverted) hardly qualified the ship as the luxury liner filled only with safe cargo and passengers that the British would have had everyone believe.

[bmarlowe1]

"In the hold of the Lusitania, the divers found approximately four million rounds of U.S.-made Remington .303 bullets. The discovery supports Germany's claim that the Lusitania had been used to shuttle war materials. The find also supports the theory that the second explosion on the Lusitania was caused by munitions on board rather than a second torpedo from the U-boat."

-------

The rifle bullets were on the cargo list. None of what you said proves what caused the large explosion.

[PolarBear]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

The rifle bullets were on the cargo list. None of what you said proves what caused the large explosion.

It does prove it was a legitimate military target though.

[howard38]

Of course it is debatable but I disagree w/the impact of the Zimmerman telegram. The immediate cause of our entry into the war was the sinking of several American merchant ships by the German navy. This was made inevitable by Germany's resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare well before the telegram was made public.