T213 related to T206 revisited w/1942 checklist info added..now w/Old Judges too

[Leon]

***1942 checklist info added at bottom***


As everyone knows there is a 1950 Book of Checklists authored by Charles Bray. Everyone probably also knows I was able to ascertain the personal copy of Walt Corson's. Both of these men were instrumental in the forming of the American Card Collectors Catalog, along with Burdick. I had to take the book out yesterday to help find who the 121st player was in the T204 set. It was handwritten as #121 in the book I have (Morgan, btw). That sort of made it easy, but I digress.

I got to thinking that maybe this very early book could reveal some more clues on the debate of T213 vs T206, and if we really should call the type 1 Coupons, T206s? After further study I guess it's obvious the founding fathers (as I call them) knew exactly what they needed to and decided to call T213 "Coupon" as I have always said they should be. Now, if we think they made a mistake, then I think we can debate that. What, to me, is not debatable is that they knew exactly what they were doing, and in thinking through it, did not make a mistake (in their minds) when categorizing them. I scanned these pages the best I could as I didn't want to harm the very tattered book anymore than it already is. That is why these scans will be poor....but at least the first list is mostly readable. The second list didn't come out as well but I am including it anyway....Special note to the handwritten, tiny note concerning the Irby Company. best regards (the book is all one size but my scans are anything but)

[barrysloate]

With regard to the T206/T213 debate, I've always wondered how the early collectors would have catalogued the Coupons if there never was a series 2 or 3. Would they still have gotten their own designation, or would they have been grouped with T206? We will never know for sure the answer to that one.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With regard to the T206/T213 debate, I've always wondered how the early collectors would have catalogued the Coupons if there never was a series 2 or 3. Would they still have gotten their own designation, or would they have been grouped with T206? We will never know for sure the answer to that one.

Personally I think they would have been classified as T206 without the other two series.

[cfc1909]

Burdick got the Coupons right by not including them with t206s although maybe for the wrong reasons. It is complicated but if you study all the series in t206 you will understand why Coupons are not t206s.

Its a good debate but they are different issues.

[tedzan]

Leon

It's nice to hear that you have a qualified agreement with those of us who consider the 1910 "COUPON" cards as another branch of the T206 set


T-Rex TED

[cfc1909]

1. says they are on heavy paper. This is not so-the type 1 are on very thin stock like Virginia Extra and the Virginia Extra issue(t216) is much more scare-rare that 213-1.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With regard to the T206/T213 debate, I've always wondered how the early collectors would have catalogued the Coupons if there never was a series 2 or 3. Would they still have gotten their own designation, or would they have been grouped with T206? We will never know for sure the answer to that one.

Barry - My initial thought is that they would have classified them as T206, but I'm not sure the difference in paper stock is something they would have discounted so easily and may still have considered them a different issue. As you say we'll never know for sure.

I'll echo what Jim said that the T206 set composition is complex but when understood it casts significant doubt IMO that the T213-1's were part of the same set.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

1. says they are on heavy paper. This is not so-the type 1 are on very thin stock like Virginia Extra and the Virginia Extra issue(t216) is much more scare-rare that 213-1.

Dunno Jim. I think they could be called heavy "paper". Had he said stock or cardboard, I would maybe think differently.

And Ted......to clarify my point above, I am not saying I think T213-1 are a type of T206. What I meant is that the way I read the statement from Burdick, above, with him referencing the other two T213 series, he might have thought differently had they not existed. With the other two series included I think he got it right. I guess I need to go back and read the minutia of the threads as to what Jim and Tim are referring to. I have a fair amount more of some early T206 writings. I will see if any will give any more info on these two issues and how they might relate to each other.

[cfc1909]

whether you call it paper or stock it is not heavy. I am sure you have handled these and they are like a sheet of loose leaf paper or thinner.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

whether you call it paper or stock it is not heavy. I am sure you have handled these and they are like a sheet of loose leaf paper or thinner.

I guess I have handled around 30-40 raw ones though I haven't kept exact count. I describe it as thin stock. We both know what it feels like it's only a matter of how we describe it that is debatable.

[wonkaticket]

Really cool Leon thanks for giving us these little windows into the past I really enjoy them!

Cheers,

John

P.S. I think T213's are really T207's I just like being difficult.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by Leon

I guess I need to go back and read the minutia of the threads as to what Jim and Tim are referring to.

If you go back and read the "trivial" details that were posted it's going to be difficult to understand what Jim and I were referring to.

[ChiefBenderForever]

Interesting stuff and I think that the Coupon type 1 will always be T213-1 but sure would cause a ruckus in the hobby if changed ! The only thing we know for sure is that a Ty Cobb back is without doubt a T206 !

[DixieBaseball]

Leon - Jim,

I think you are both right in a sense, but possibly the bulletin is technically wrong, but right in thought. Let me explain... I think of the coupon type 1's as the same thickness as a piece of paper. If you hold up a 8x11 piece of paper it is flimsy and drops on one end holding it by the other end, but if you cut out a piece of that paper roughly the size of the type 1 coupon, it does not fall, but performs the same way a Type 1 would should you hold it on one end. (The Coupon behaves the same way) I really think the Coupon and a piece of notebook paper are the same weight/thickness. Perhaps a piece of notebook paper is a 1/32 of a millimeter thinner !?! To call a Type 1 "heavy" as I imagine they were referring to "Heavy Paper" seems technically wrong. I bet if you made a type 1 coupon 8x11 it would fall like a flimsy piece of paper holding it on one end... (Gosh, I hope this rambling makes sense....) Point is, a Coupon and a piece of paper are more or less the same.

Can you say, splitting hairs !

[rhettyeakley]

I think one has to remember what information was available to him at the time he was organizing the ACC. Obviously, nobody had done the type of research that the T206 crowd has done over the last 20 years so all of that was not known to him, so the fact that the checklist of T213-1 doesn't really jive with any particular "series" of T206's wouldn't have mattered at all to Burdick--otherwise E92 would have been broken down to many different #'s as some of the manufacturers made different players (that wasn't part of his understanding/intent IMO).

The paper stock is correctly id'ed as "heavy paper" (as oppsed to tissue paper, or typing paper, etc.) as sure it is thin but compared to most "paper" it was relatively thick--so he was correctly describing the stock as "heavy".

I have no doubt had there not been the other t213 sets they would have been grouped as a T206 set by him--that was his MO with the rest of the ACC. However, had he done that today we would be having debates about why T206 Coupon should have been given their own ACC designation because the checklisting doesn't allow them to fit nicely into any "Series" or "chronological" order (like the rest of the T206 brands do).

[DixieBaseball]

The paper stock is correctly id'ed as "heavy paper" (as oppsed to tissue paper, or typing paper, etc.) as sure it is thin but compared to most "paper" it was relatively thick--so he was correctly describing the stock as "heavy".

Rhett, I respectively disagree, as Coupon's are thinner than typing paper. They are equivalent to notebook paper (That was my point in the last post) if you take notebook paper and cut it out the same dimensions as T card, they feel one in the same.

I do however understand why they called it heavy, but I think that is technically wrong. (If you take a piece of notebook paper, cut it to T dimension, then it is not as flimsy. You would not call this paper heavy, although it is more rigid all of a sudden compared to had you left the notebook paper 8x11)

Sorry to split hairs again, but perhaps a fun project would be to get a proffessional to measure a Coupon and a piece of Notebook paper, Typing paper, etc. for comparison sake. Maybe the findings would be more glaring...

[tedzan]

Regarding the thickness (or lack of it) of the T213-1 stock......this is a "red-herring". Pardon my use of this idiom, but there are more significant factors
that reinforce the present day thinking that the 1910 "COUPON" set of cards should be re-classified as one more T-brand in the T206 set family.

(1)....This set includes 48 - Major League subjects derived from an early T206 press run of the 350-only series.

(2)....From the 48 subjects in the Southern League series (OLD MILL & PIEDMONT runs), twenty T206 subjects of the Southern Association are included
in this set since the COUPON tobacco was available in the Gulf region.


And before some of you jump on me for including the Six Super Prints in the "350-only" series, these 6 subjects were initially printed as part of this series.
Then these Super Prints were initially extended into the 460 series when American Litho. short-printed them in the SOVEREIGN 460-only press run.

Actually, Scot Reader's definition of the Six Super Prints is the most accurate............

"These 6 cards were initially 350-only subjects; and, subsequently 460-only subjects".


OK....in my opinion, the T213-1 cards were Short-printed (circa Spring/Summer 1910) and were shipped to the tobacco plant in New Orleans (Factory #3)
to be associated with this relatively new brand identified as "COUPON".
Obviously, these cards were not meant to serve as "stifferners" in their packs. As most tobacco cards have been. Perhaps Jon Canfield will inform us about
the nature of the early "COUPON" cigarette packs (or boxes).

Do we really know if these cards were actually inserted into packs ?

Perhaps these cards may have been distributed like the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card......not as inserts.


TED Z

[Leon]

Just searching some checklist threads and came across this one. Seems to be pretty good info on T213 so that's why I am bumping it.
In addition, I might have posted this before, but it's some pretty cool reading anyway, so here it is again. And lastly, to answer at least one of Teds (hi Ted) questions, I don't know if a T213-1 Coupon card has been found in a pack or not. Good question though. As for these pages in this old Bulletin manual, they date circa 1942. enjoy

[wonkaticket]

Good stuff Leon, never noticed as others have that the first checklist up top says that Type 1 coupons are on heavy paper. I have always found type ones to be on thinner more delicate paper, guess it depends on how one classifies “heavy” paper.

Thanks for showing I enjoyed looking these over. Neat stuff!

Cheers,

John

[the 'stache]

This is a really fascinating discussion. Thank you, Leon.

[RCMcKenzie]

Leon, thanks for bringing this back to the top, as I was not reading the board in 2011. Those are some priceless hobby archives you have there.


T213-1 Coupon cards are on very heavy paper. The paper stock is thin compared to other cardboard series, but it is "Heavy" or dense in that the colors on the front do not show through to the back. Light paper, like typing or notebook paper, is not sturdy enough for colors not to be seen from the other side of the paper.

And, I agree with Jim that T216 Virginia Extra are much more difficult to find than a Coupon card. The T216 are another interesting series, in that it seems that if grouped by the front of the card, then they should be classified with the matching candy or E cards.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Just searching some checklist threads and came across this one. Seems to be pretty good info on T213 so that's why I am bumping it.
In addition, I might have posted this before, but it's some pretty cool reading anyway, so here it is again. And lastly, to answer at least one of Teds (hi Ted) questions, I don't know if a T213-1 Coupon card has been found in a pack or not. Good question though. As for these pages in this old Bulletin manual, they date circa 1942. enjoy

Hi Leon

Neat stuff.

I don't think I'll bet the farm....but, maybe one of my two barns....that we will never find a "COUPON" cigarette pack. So, finding
a T213-1 card in a pack is a moot point.

The 1910 COUPON cigarettes were marketed in cartons containing 100's of cigarettes.



....... Spring/Summer 1910 .................................................. 1914 .............................................. 1919
. . . . . .

. .



TED Z

[RCMcKenzie]

This is the pack that Canfield shows on his site, but I have not seen any proof that these are the packs that contained t213.

www.ebay.com/itm/321206322803

[Leon]

Hi Ted
I got my information from Jon's site,

http://www.baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Can you tell me where you got yours? I always want to learn something I don't know about this stuff.

[RCMcKenzie]

The ebay seller had 2 of these packs. He says they have 20 cigarettes in them. So, clearly T213-3 were not sold in the packs that this guy had. Has anyone ever opened one and found a T213-2? Canfield says T213-3 were included in these. Not slamming the guy, he has a wealth of information on his pack site, just asking.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Ted
I got my information from Jon's site,

http://www.baseballandtobacco.com/t213.htm

Can you tell me where you got yours? I always want to learn something I don't know about this stuff.

Good morning Leon

First, I have seen a carton (measuring approx. 11" x 3" x 2") labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes. No cigarettes in this carton, but I think it is fair to assume it originally
contained 100's of "COUPON" cigarettes.

Some years ago, I asked Jon if he had seen (or was aware) of a 10-cigarette pack labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes. Jon said that no such pack has ever been seen.

The key here is the significance of the QUOTES on the brand name. It is my understanding that any new tobacco brand that ATC introduced into the market prior
to having a Registered Trademark, required the labelling of this brand with quotes. I've added the "PIRATE" cigarettes pack (and card) and the "Ty Cobb" Tobacco
card as further examples of the "quoted" brands.

Furthermore, consider this....as you very well know, two regular T-cards inserted in these packs also served as "stiffiners". There is no way that the 1910 COUPON
(soft card-board) cards served this purpose. And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be stiffiners, hence the softer cardboard stock.

So, until we find a standard 10-cigarette pack labelled "COUPON", you'll have to trust my take on this. I'm 99% certain we will NOT find such a pack. That's why I
am willing to bet one my barns



.


. .



Pardon my lengthy response.


TED Z

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Good morning Leon

First, I have seen a carton (measuring approx. 11" x 3" x 2") labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes. No cigarettes in this carton, but I think it is fair to assume it originally
contained 100's of "COUPON" cigarettes.

Some years ago, I asked Jon if he had seen (or was aware) of a 10-cigarette pack labelled "COUPON" Cigarettes. Jon said that no such pack has ever been seen.

The key here is the significance of the QUOTES on the brand name. It is my understanding that any new tobacco brand that ATC introduced into the market prior
to having a Registered Trademark, required the labelling of this brand with quotes. I've added the "PIRATE" cigarettes pack (and card) and the "Ty Cobb" Tobacco
card as further examples of the "quoted" brands.

Furthermore, consider this....as you very well know, two regular T-cards inserted in these packs also served as "stiffiners". There is no way that the 1910 COUPON
(soft card-board) cards served this purpose. And, the 1910 COUPON cards were never meant to be stiffiners, hence the softer cardboard stock.

So, until we find a standard 10-cigarette pack labelled "COUPON", you'll have to trust my take on this. I'm 99% certain we will NOT find such a pack. That's why I
am willing to bet one my barns

Pardon my lengthy response.


TED Z

Hi Ted
Here are some thoughts. I think your assumption that you have a carton that says 100s of Coupon cigarettes might mean they were in packs in the box but not necessarily? (unless it says differently). My carton says 200 cigarettes 20s.......There could have been 10 packs of twenty, I am not sure.

I still think the type 1s could have been inserted into packs. Even though cards were used as stiffeners for the packs they were also used as promotional items to sell the cigarettes. We have seen ads of other brands promoting the cards so we know that is true. Maybe Coupon made the type 1s on thin paper because that is what was available...they didn't stiffen the packs too well, so they changed later on? There is a lot we don't know about the packs of Coupons and until more evidence is discovered I think your hypothesis could be accurate...and could not be accurate.

[tedzan]

[QUOTE=Leon;1184587]Hi Ted
Here are some thoughts. I think your assumption that you have a carton that says 100s of Coupon cigarettes might mean they were in packs in the box but not necessarily? (unless it says differently). My carton says 200 cigarettes 20s.......There could have been 10 packs of twenty, I am not sure.

QUOTE]


Leon

I failed to mention that a newspaper advertisement exists that shows this "COUPON" Cigarettes carton loaded with 100's of individual cigarettes.
Perhaps someone on the forum will dig up that Adv. and post it here.


TED Z

[Leon]

This was a pretty good thread, imo.....and this 1942 (lower book shown) is one of the earliest checklist books in the hobby....if not THE earliest, if we don't count the regular Card Collectors Bulletins which predated this by a few years....Also, remember this is BEFORE the American Card Catalog (ACC) came out and different numbering was used....

I want to add a bit for our (N)172 collectors so here ya go.....(remember, this checklist is around 70 years old!!)

[barrysloate]

No Gibson, Athletics, or Flynn, Omaha, to name two. I'm sure there are others.

[buymycards]

Getting back to the T213 packs, the packs in the eBay link show Factory 42 but the T213's all have Factory #3 backs. Would the cigarettes and the packs and the cards all have come from the same factory?