Biggest Jerks in the HOF

[packs]

I never said anything was ok. All I said was the motivations were different and to me one is worse than the other. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by packs

I never said anything was ok. All I said was the motivations were different and to me one is worse than the other. I'm not excusing anyone's behavior.

Curious how you're able to speak for the motivations of all these people? And whether accurate or not, what makes Bonds' supposed "jeolousy as motivation" so much worse than someone juicing to maintain a spot on the roster (see Armando Rios, FP Santangelo)? Many fringe MLB players who juiced were keeping other potentially worthy players off of big league rosters... and by result keeping big league checks out of their family's bank accounts. SI did a great article a couple years back, written by a guy who was passed over year after year by guys that were inexplicably gaining 10+ MPH on their fastballs.

Other guys who were better than marginal and juiced (Ken Caminiti, Bret Boone, B Giles types) made a hell of a lot of money doing so. Assuming they weren't considering career longevity, or increasing earning potentional, or the ever evil jealousy, and instead all juiced for "team", would it be acceptable?

I'm not in a position to gauge each individuals' motivation for juicing, and get tired of fans and many in media who continually jump to conclusions. I think some things in baseball and pro sports are pretty basic though. Perform well and make a roster. Perform better, get paid and team wins more games (personal and team goals are not by rule mutually exclusive). Perform even better, perhaps be considered for Hall of Fame. Lots of room motivations/personal agenda, and players of all eras have looked for an edge to perform better.

[packs]

I didn't excuse anyone and hold all accountable. I just personally think players like Bonds and Clemens (and players like them, not just them) cheated in a different way than someone who is spitting on a baseball. That's all I'm saying. Whatever you're adding to my argument is not coming from me.

As for assuming motivations. I don't claim to be inside of their heads. But I understand the world.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by packs

But I understand the world.

Understand the World as Mark Fenara-Wada wrote and Pedro Gomez reported it?

It's clear you separate these guys, particularly Bonds as being motivated by jealousy and insecurity (credit Mark FW for shaping opinions there) rather than simply cheating to win.. and for some reason that's far worse and excludes him from Hall consideration, while other cheaters get a pass.

My comment and understanding of the world is that people generally want to do well... particluarly competitive athletes. Not assuming I know their minds, but do think it is naive to make the opposite assumption that Gaylord Perry is only cheating to better his team and his not taking his own perfomance on the mound into consideration.

I guess if you're not 700+ HR or 7 Cy Young Award good, you must only be cheating to win. Keeping a job or increasing your earnings doesn't factor at all, right?

As a Giants fan who probably saw 50+ Bonds HRs in person and loved every one, I don't particularly like that he holds the HR record. However, I also don't like seeing how he and Clemens given such a higher level of scrutiny than the rest. They seem to take the brunt for the whole era, which is nuts because IMO "the era" is far from over and many many players are still probably juicing.

[packs]

What do you mean by giving a pass? I said all cheating is bad.

Bonds and Clemens weren't trying to earn a roster spot. So again, I do think that makes their motivations distinctly different from a fringe player.

It was about the legacy. And that's why I see them as insecure.

I don't mean to make light of Perry's method. But I don't think he was trying to break anyone's record when he spit on those baseballs. But I do think Bonds was trying to break someone's record when he juiced. And I do think Clemens wanted to be seen as the greatest pitcher of all time when he juiced.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by packs

What do you mean by giving a pass? I said all cheating is bad.

Bonds and Clemens weren't trying to earn a roster spot. So again, I do think that makes their motivations distinctly different from a fringe player.
.

OK, "giving a pass" may be too strong, but I don't see why Bonds' and Clemens' motivations were worse than others'. The fact they weren't fringe players can actually be argued as being less impactful to the dozens, maybe hundreds of other guys who couldn't hold a big league job due to people juicing. The fact that Bonds and Clemens would've been on the rosters at least means they didn't take someone else's job.

I'm not a Bonds/Clemens apologist, but I do think all who juiced did wrong.. and I'd guess most did it for personal gain, whether driven by jealousy or want for records, or just want for better stats and a secure job.