Opinion on a feedback to leave

[npa589]

I never leave negative feedback, and have only once done so on eBay. That was in a case where i was charged 6.50$ for shipping and the T206 was shipped in a white envelope with a normal stamp, wrapped in paper (the invoice). No toploader, no sleeve. I believe it was a Mordecai Brown portrait, but can't remember for sure.

I contacted the seller, and his response was "Well, you got the card didn't you."

There have been other cases where negative feedback may have been warranted, but if I was refunded promptly upon returning an item, I didn't care.

Something perturbs me though when a seller does the following:

First off, he doesn't accept PayPal, but that's a choice. It bothered me, but it's his prerogative.

I purchased 18 PSA graded pre-war cards from this seller (1500$). I was originally charged 90$ for shipping (5$ per card) in an invoice that was sent from the seller a day after. The listing clearly stated "We do combine shipping charges for multiple item purchases". I contacted him saying it was rather high, and he claimed an employee sent the wrong invoice. I suppose that could be true, but I'm inherently a cynic. The invoice was changed to reflect $20 for shipping. I was okay with it, assuming they would be sent insured, or in a medium flat rate box.

I got them today and the 18 PSA graded pre-war cards were packed into 1 Small flat rate box. If you sell, you know that this is impossible if you want the box to be contained. The box was busting at the seams and barely held together by tape. There was no bubble wrap since it couldn't have fit, and I could see the bottom left or right corners of 4 of the PSA holders.

It required no signature, nor was it insured via the USPS. So, it cost him $5.15 to ship.

I contacted him cordially and his response was essentially "Glad you got them safe!...Signed "President of" blah blah blah.

My second message was this:

The packaging was one issue, but the main one was having to pay 20$ for shipping when it in fact cost 5.15$. I also had to contact you to have it changed from 90$ shipping. If I had bought one card, my shipping would have been five dollars. I assume it would have been shipped the same way in a Priority Mail Small Flat Rate Box. I purchased 18, and they were still packed into a small flat rate box , yet I paid $20. There was no signature confirmation, and it wasn't insured.

He said this:

Well let's see,
eBay fees plus your credit card fee = $170+ dollars it cost me to sell you these cards.
Now my private insurance company ship and insure charges $1.00 per hundred of coverage up to $2,000 then discounts start to kick in. So looks like I got $20.15 in delivering you package.
No charge for my employee's time on my clock, gas going to the PO, packing tape. Etc.

Tell me who got the better end of this deal?


There were rather blatant holes in what he said that I won't waste your time with. Many of you will probably see what I'm talking about. His response also reveals what his motive for the shipping costs was.


Anyways, I'd love to get the opinion of some fellow board members.

I know what I want to do, but I usually wait a few days before making any type of emotional decision.

[Seattle799]

The point of shipping is to cover what it costs to SHIP the item. When you sell an item for X dollars, that X includes the expenses of selling an item, labor to pack it, driving to the post office, etc.

He charged $20 for shipping that cost at most $7 when you include the cost of the box and packing materials.

I would send one more message giving him the opportunity to refund $10 or so (give him one last chance to make it right).

Then, negative feedback for sure.

I think people are WAY to generous on feedback. I recently had three items where I paid for them and never received them. I filed a claim with ebay and got a refund, then left negative feedback. I looked at the sellers profile, and he had done the same for the past 10-15 sales, yet several people left neutral feedback. You paid for an item, didn't receive it, and left NEUTRAL feedback?!?!?! (end rant)

[thecatspajamas]

I think you did the right thing by contacting the guy about the issue first, and then went above and beyond what most buyers would have done by sending a second thoughtful message. The "cost" to ship, and where that is accounted for in the selling price, is a debatable issue, but cramming $1500 of any product into a box such that portions of the contents are visible upon arrival without opening the box is inexcusable.

If it were me, I wouldn't have even brought up the cost of the shipping once it was reduced to $20. Whether you believe him or not, he does have a point about the insurance cost. The real issue to my mind is his packing, and it doesn't sound like he made any apologies for that.

It looks to me like you have 18 opportunities to explain to all of his buyers exactly what kind of care they can expect him to take in packing their purchases. That's one of the up sides of being abused on multiple purchases: you have more available characters to tell the whole story. I would never condone slamming a seller with multiple negatives without contacting them first, but if the guy's an unrepentent douche bag, he's got it coming. Just be honest and straightforward in your feedback comments and don't use abusive language, lest he should make a case to eBay for having your feedback removed.

[npa589]

Thanks for the opinions you guys. I think I may be lenient with regard to feedback, especially considering my only neutral/negative feedback were 2 Neutral feedback left by the same buyer. I sent 2 T206s to Canada in a padded envelope, with 2 thick cardboard pieces to hold the cards, and the toploader was taped just in case. I charged 3.30$ shipping, and it cost me 5$. That wasn't the issue though. The issue was that each card did not have it's own toploader. I put them each in their own sleeve, and then placed both in one toploader. I wasn't contacted beforehand about this crazy preference, nor after he received them.


Lance: I do understand about the insurance cost (when actually obtaining a policy), but my response to him regarding that was he was implying that this was a per item cost. If he has chosen an insurance policy that charges him those rates for each individual item , well, that might not be very smart, and it's about the worst insurance policy I've ever heard of.

To make sure I wasn't wrong on this, I just checked and subsequently discovered it was a blatant lie.

https://www.shipandinsure.com/rates_calculator.aspx

[glchen]

I would neg the seller and ding all DSRs.

[sbfinley]

I'm assuming that these were BIN's. If that was the case he should have factored his labor and private insurance into the cost of his merchandise and reflect that is his price, not his shipping. I would neutral feedback and ding every one of his stars while making a clear point in the text about his horrible packing.

[npa589]

If they were BINs, I definitely would agree with your point. They were all auctions, which provides even more incentive for him to realize he should adjust the shipping to accommodate the possible increase in $ I gave him by winning the auctions he listed.

[D. Bergin]

There are lots of shipping Insurance options out there now that don't reflect on the label that can factor into the shipping cost. It can cost $15+ bucks to Insure $1500. ShipInsure through Stamps.com or Ebay can sometimes cost more then the Post Office rate.

Sounds like he did a crappy job packing the box up though, and there's really no excuse for that. He should have paid the few extra bucks it might have cost to pack the cards more securely. If he was worried about the cost he could have sent you an invoice for $25 bucks to cover the extra cost, instead 20 bucks.

I have no idea how he could fit 18 graded cards into a small flat rate box. That's crazy. You're not supposed to break the seams on flat rate boxes and envelopes without getting bumped up to straight package Priority rates.

I'm also surprised he didn't use Signature Confirmation. That's asking for trouble with Paypal on a transaction of that amount, unless his private insurance doesn't require it for some reason.

[alanu]

I had the same thing happen to me and left positive feedback with the description something like, "fast shipping, but packaging a little flimsy"

The seller sent me a message calling me all kinds of names and it made me kind of wish I had left a negative.

[KCRfan1]

Negative Feedback. It's HIS choice not to use Paypal, so the creditcard fee is on him. Gas, " employees time " to process the order, ect is all a cost of doing business and should be understood by all reasonable business owners. There is NO excuse for poor shipping. It sounds to me like the seller was trying to slide the shipping fees by you and when you called him on it he adjusted the rate. But to ship and not have the packaging secure? Sellers know better than that. I would explain what happened and under no circumstances rant.

[lharri3600]

HIT HIM NATE!!

[steve B]

How did the post office accept it like that? Flat rate boxes are supposed to at least close on their own without tape and be folded correctly. I've had one that was refused at the counter because I tape the flap of the flat rate box down. Small flat rate boxes can fit inside a flat rate envelope so it wasn't a problem And a friend of mine puts the label over the flap of the flat rate envelope and had one returned.

So them accepting one where the stuff inside doesn't actually fit is strange.

The attitude that shipping is supposed to cover his selling expenses is just wrong. If he'd justified higher shipping because of using a bigger box or claiming the expense of packing materials plus some handling. I might buy that, but not the way he shipped it.

I'm not sure what I'd do for feedback. I've basically abandoned feedback except for sellers who ask or go well beyond normal expectations. Or sometimes for a newish seller who asks.

Steve b

[sycks22]

The confusing thing about 3rd party insurance with auction houses is how the same invoice price will cost $15 to ship and $65 with the other. Both are sent 2 day. Best of luck in the decision as it's a tough one.

[drmondobueno]

There is no excuse for poor business practice. Hit the negtive box, make your comments and be done with it and him.

Keith

[npa589]

As I discovered, the way you """fit them""" is by putting them on a 90 degree angle to the long side of a SFRB. Then you wrap it in tape and put the label over the tape, and then wrap it in tape again. I wish I could say "heavily wrapped", but I can't.

Dave: "There are lots of shipping Insurance options out there now that don't reflect on the label that can factor into the shipping cost. It can cost $15+ bucks to Insure $1500. ShipInsure through Stamps.com or Ebay can sometimes cost more then the Post Office rate."

I definitely agree, and what you say is true, in that it is only reflected on the label if you purchase USPS insurance. I've only used eBay's insurance a couple times because it was less than the PO rate. That was about 6 months or so ago though, because now, the eBay rate is higher than PO rate. Usually, for him to actually be covered under the insurance option he chose, it would have required a signature for it to actually be covered, not to mention the fact that he didn't package the way his insurance company requires.

I only included a link before but didn't explain everything. The rate he claimed was 1$ per 100$. The company he mentioned actually offers $.24 per 100$ for USPS Priority. Then, there is a $1.50 fee for each shipment. Under that option, it would have cost $4.74 to cover it. He claimed 15$.

https://www.shipandinsure.com/rates.aspx

He also did not adhere to many of the requirements for Ship & Insure, and would have been denied coverage.
https://www.shipandinsure.com/shippi...tructions.aspx

I personally don't think he had it insured at all, and am almost positive he was blatantly lying about insuring it at all, let alone the actual cost to him.

[npa589]

Obviously the frustration is not over the amount of money here, it's more about the lack of principle, and the continued lack of honesty when pressed.

I think we all get kind of frustrated when we purchase from an auction house, and buy 1 200$ item, yet our shipping & handling is 15$. It's "What, do you think I'm an idiot???"

That's why we have heralded some recent auction house upstarts, such as JVSC, who charge the ACTUAL shipping cost, maybe even less. But, we would expect no less, because most of us have done business with Joe, and he is as good and honest as it gets. I suppose you could say he always respects every buyer in his invoices.

[Leon]

The total shipping cost isn't what I would have the issue with either. It's the packaging and everything else.

[ValKehl]

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that eBay policy places the burden of loss or damage intransit on the SELLER. Hence, I feel a seller is well within his "rights" to charge a reasonable shipping charge which would include insurance, even if the seller doesn't obtain any insurance on the shipment. In such instances, the seller is, in effect, self-insuring the shipment, and I don't feel there is anything wrong with a seller charging a reasonable amount for the self-insurance he is providing.
Val

[HercDriver]

I would definitely leave negative feedback. I'm not sure why everybody is so tentative about doing it, but if the guy sucks, let everyone else know. It's not the end of the world for the seller, but it might make a new buyer ask questions before bidding. If it was a negative experience, let the feedback reflect it.

Geno

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that eBay policy places the burden of loss or damage intransit on the SELLER. Hence, I feel a seller is well within his "rights" to charge a reasonable shipping charge which would include insurance, even if the seller doesn't obtain any insurance on the shipment. In such instances, the seller is, in effect, self-insuring the shipment, and I don't feel there is anything wrong with a seller charging a reasonable amount for the self-insurance he is providing.
Val

True, but they way he packaged the items completely undermines his shipping costs. Had they arrived neat an tidy (and been more cordial) I would guess the OP would have been content. Can't speak for him however.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I'm assuming that these were BIN's. If that was the case he should have factored his labor and private insurance into the cost of his merchandise and reflect that is his price, not his shipping. I would neutral feedback and ding every one of his stars while making a clear point in the text about his horrible packing.

The thing to remember is that not everybody does things the way that you do, and it's not always practical to just roll the shipping/handling cost into the item price. In my case, I handle a lot of items on consignment, and I use eBay to maintain a certain amount of transparency when selling other people's stuff for them. A consignor can look at my eBay store and see their items when they are listed. They can also see when something sells, at what price it sells for, and can figure how much they've got coming to them based on taking a percentage of that final sale price they see. If I were to start trying to itemize how much of the sale price they see went to shipping costs, it would be a never-ending headache, especially when a single order included items from several different consignors. Rather than try to parse out what percentage of the shipping cost should be attributed to Consignor A's item, and figure okay Consignor B's item weighs more, so more of the shipping cost should come out of his, etc., I just charge shipping separately. I also usually show several shipping options for each item, and have a list of combined shipping rates for most typical items that I sell. When you take into account shipping, packing, and collecting supplies along with postage and the percentage that eBay charges on shipping now, it's just about break-even for me, but the s/h charge is ALWAYS more than the raw postage cost. Would it be easier for the buyer if all the Fixed Price items showed $0.00 for shipping but with a higher per-item cost? Sure. But I'm not going to make my life a hell of paperwork and lengthy explanations to every consignor just because a buyer can't figure out to subtract the shipping cost from their offer price when deciding whether to purchase or not.

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that eBay policy places the burden of loss or damage intransit on the SELLER. Hence, I feel a seller is well within his "rights" to charge a reasonable shipping charge which would include insurance, even if the seller doesn't obtain any insurance on the shipment. In such instances, the seller is, in effect, self-insuring the shipment, and I don't feel there is anything wrong with a seller charging a reasonable amount for the self-insurance he is providing.
Val

You are correct that eBay basically forces all sellers to provide "insurance" on every item they sell in the sense that any buyer can force a return on any item, whether the seller specifies "no returns" or not. Some sellers choose to pass that insurance responsibility off to the USPS or UPS or Fed-Ex, for a price, and others choose to, as you say, "self insure." Many more sellers don't realize or charge for the burden being placed on them and just "hope nothing happens." When eBay first began disallowing an itemized charge for insurance, they sent e-mails to sellers telling them that they should just roll the insurance cost into the shipping price, which is basically what is being done here. Over time, many buyers have come to take "insurance" for granted and now expect sellers to shoulder the responsibility without any additional compensation.

Originally Posted by HercDriver

I would definitely leave negative feedback. I'm not sure why everybody is so tentative about doing it, but if the guy sucks, let everyone else know. It's not the end of the world for the seller, but it might make a new buyer ask questions before bidding. If it was a negative experience, let the feedback reflect it.

Geno

I agree with this statement too, but only after communication with the seller. Too often (as in, every time) the negative and neutral feedback I have received as a seller has been left by a buyer who never contacted me about any issue, and 9 times out of 10 they could have been easily corrected with a little communication. It is VERY frustrating for a seller to be ambushed with negative feedback over something they could have corrected or made amends for if they had just known about the issue. Slapping down a negative without first communicating with the seller does nobody any good, and if you're shopping with me, is ALWAYS grounds for being banned from future bidding/buying. In cases like this though, where the seller makes no attempt to make good on the issue or even admit that there is an issue, it's only fair that you let other buyers know about it.

[travrosty]

the best kind of negative feedback you can leave is to not buy from him again.

[Nashvol]

+1

[Jewish-collector]

Nate -

What you need to do is tell him you're discussing the situation with other buyers on a message board (send him the link to this thread) and see what he says/does. That might change his feelings. If he doesn't do anything after that, tell him you will give him a strong negative feedback and if he has a problem with that, you got 2 words for him.....

[t206blogcom]

Clear case for me - negative feedback. Overcharged for shipping and the cards were poorly packaged. You already had to hold his feet to the fire to get him to honor his combined shipping pledge. Now he's being a dick about it rather than manning up.

[tinkertoeverstochance]

2 words - negative feedback.

[npa589]

I completely agree Lance, and thank you for adding to the discussion.

Like I said, I try to avoid leaving negative feedback, and have only done so 1 or 2 times in 8 years.

I've now contacted him again to give him yet another chance to come up with a proper solution. I'm not going to threaten him with negative feedback because I never feel that necessary, only because I think it should be rather obvious what the choices are on my end if you contact a seller with a problem (or 3) including the fact that 18 PSA graded cards were packed into 1 SFRB.

In the last message I sent, I "confronted" him about his claim for the cost of insurance for the items, and what the actual rates are on the Ship and Insure site. What I feel is that he exaggerated the cost at best, and at worst, he lied about insuring them at all --- both of these possibilities being available for realization due to a weak and poorly thought out attempt at excusing the shipping cost that he seemed to adjust to make sure he made a little more money on the sales.

Thanks for all of your opinions! Hope your weekend has been restful. NBA playoffs!

Nate

[old-baseball]

Just happened to me today....

Last week a won a small schedule booklet in an auction for $9.99 (the opening bid). The postage in the auction listing is noted at $8.00 but says that it's USPS Priority Mail. My thinking is $5 and change for a small flat rate box plus about $2 insurance coverage - $8 total shipping is about right for insured priority mail. The envelope with booklet inside arrives today with $2.07 total postage on it (which includes the USPS tracking). I send a message to the seller asking why I didn't get what I paid for - asking why the auction listing states USPS Priority Mail and it was sent first class? What I get is a somewhat terse lecture about how $2.07 is just postage it doesn't include the delivery confirmation or his private insurance (which by the way he assures me is cheaper than what the post office charges) or his packing material. No mention or answer to my question of why it wasn't sent Priority Mail. I point out again that the auction listing says priority mail and it was sent first class. I also point out that the $2.07 does include the USPS tracking, his packing material were basically recycled material (which I'm all for) and that insurance from the post office would have been about $2 for a $50 item. His response was that I basically have no clue what I'm talking about and feel free to leave him feedback noting my complaint. That's exactly what he got - negative feedback. Be careful what you ask for - sometime you'll get it.

The worst part is that he's got really nice stuff. Old civil war letters, cabinets, football stuff, hockey stuff, etc... If he would have listed the item at $18 with free shipping I probably would have still bid on it. What I don't like is having something (in this case postage service) being misrepresented and then being told that I don't know what I'm talking about.

[npa589]

Exactly right Kevin. Many times, it's not about the amount of money involved or the mistake with what type of shipping carrier/service used, it's the response after.

I didn't care to pay the extra, yet it is so important to these sellers to keep the extra --- in each case a few bucks being more important than the "satisfaction" for the customer. In these examples, however, I'm reluctant to even use the word satisfaction, but instead that they'll take a few dollars over doing what is a common courtesy. These people are probably the same people that lie about overhead costs for "NFP" organizations - pocketing the extra.

I know many other sellers here do the same, but I don't even hesitate to send a refund to a buyer when the stupid USPS loses a package. I've had to do it 5 times in the last 2 years. I don't view that as something "special", but instead only as what should be expected of a seller and should be viewed as common courtesy. Clearly it's not that common anymore...
One more subtle USPS rant and example...I recently had USPS play baseball with a package that had an SGC graded T3 in it. I put the T3 between big cardboard pieces, and then wrapped it in bubble wrap. I then put it in a big padded envelope. The buyer contacted me kindly and said the cardboard was bent and sent a scan to show the top left portion of the SGC holder was cracked and missing a large piece. As much as I hate the USPS, and want to exact revenge, is it weird that I gleefully sent the guy a partial refund equaling the amount it took to re-holder ship it to SGC? He never asked for it, but it was implied and understood. Once I told him I was going to do that, he said for me to not worry about any shipping. I gladly sent him the reholdering fee plus a few $ for shipping. The best part is that I can think of many times where people on Net54 have done the same thing, setting great examples for us younger folk, without any threat of bad feedback -- and simply do it for integrity's sake.

With my long-winded tangential self, I'll wrap this post up and let you all know that I left negative feedback. Unfortunately, it will count as only one negative - so his % stays the same. This is probably why he didn't care about a solution, and stopped responding to messages that I was sending requesting that he clarify what I perceived to be blatant falsehoods. I'm now assuming that he did indeed lie about ever even insuring the """SFRB""" with 18 PSA Graded T206s jammed in them.....lol, sorry, just had to write that again. It's still dumbfounding to me!

[Wite3]

I often contact the seller first. If I get a nice response and an offer back (of anything really) to refund some shipping. I give positive and move on. If I get no response or a rude response, I tend to leave neutral or negative and kill their star rating.

My most annoying pet peeve is winning two auctions from the same seller days apart, pay shipping on both, and then they hold the items and ship them together, essentially charging me shipping twice on one package. Again, I would not complain if they shipped out the first card after the auction and then the second...I have no problem paying for two packages as that figured into my bid. But I just do not like the idea (feeling) of being taken advantage of...

Joshua