Was I Shilled??

[Runscott]

Well, maybe it's a cover-up for a shill i.d., but the accused 0-feedback shiller did a BIN within the last hour, from the same seller.

I have had a few 0-feedback bidders who won their first item with me and became regular customers. Everyone one of us had 0 feedback at one point.

Scott <=== guess I'm one of the blind idiots some have described in this thread.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

+1

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

No matter how you slice it, if someone is shill bidding it's wrong. No logic will make it right. Of course there are worse problems but this is the one being discussed. As for the original auction being debated, my only thinking is that I don't know about the BINs. Those most likely were not shill bidding.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

No matter how you slice it, if someone is shill bidding it's wrong. No logic will make it right. Of course there are worse problems but this is the one being discussed. As for the original auction being debated, my only thinking is that I don't know about the BINs. Those most likely were not shill bidding.

Leon, I agree that it's wrong, but my point is that it's so commonplace, predictable, and incapable of being prevented that it's a waste of time and energy to focus on it. I know from prior complaints to ebay (in situations that were painfully obvious) that went uremedied that they don't care about it, for example. Oh wait, maybe that grand jury in Chicago is about to hand down an indictment....

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Leon, I agree that it's wrong, but my point is that it's so commonplace, predictable, and incapable of being prevented that it's a waste of time and energy to focus on it. I know from prior complaints to ebay (in situations that were painfully obvious) that went uremedied that they don't care about it, for example. Oh wait, maybe that grand jury in Chicago is about to hand down an indictment....

It might be a waste of time and energy but it's still what is being discussed in this thread. And there seem to be some very different feelings on the original auction, or at least potential different possibilities, so this one WAS probably worth discussing. I rarely see so many members so divided like this. (yes, I know there are exceptions but to this extent is unusual)

[calvindog]

Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

The fact that we have people on this board -- purportedly educated people -- saying that they don't mind being defrauded is a bit chilling to say the least.

[D. Bergin]

Let me be clear. I'm not in the camp either, that says it's ok you got shilled as long as you got the item at your price..........though I understand where those guys are coming from.

I don't condone shilling in any form. If you don't trust the auction process, use a reserve, high minimum, or list it at a straight price. I've got tons of stuff I think is a waste listing in a 7-10 day window at auction. Most of that stuff gets listed for retail on my websites.

I think it's a serious offense and I'd get annoyed if I thought my own bid got shilled up.

Because I think it's a serious offense, I think it's a travesty that others throw around the word so easily. It's an accusation. I'd be p*ssed, and I'd be mortified if somebody accused me of shilling one of my auctions. I've been selling on Ebay long enough to know, I've had plenty of auctions with strange bidders, and bidding patterns that could have drawn the attention of the "shilling police". Anybody who's sold on Ebay with any regularity has.

People seem to often use the logic......."that's not how I'd bid" to jump to a conclusion that somebody is shilling an auction.

Every bidder is different, with different strategies and different ideas on how they'd like to win an auction. Many of them make no sense whatsoever to me, but it is what it is.



Now, the auction in question in this thread. it's pretty scary how quickly the lynch mob formed behind the "Kill The Witch" crowd, even after certain facts were laid out pretty plainly.

The actual timing of this sellers auctions and the bids make it fairly easy, with about 5 minutes of detective work, to debunk any sort of shilling fantasy.

If it is a shill, it's the most poorly conceived shill I've ever seen.

Worst case scenario, it's somebody who's giving this seller a ride by buying up a bunch of their retail listings without any intention of paying. I've no reason to know, one way or another at this point.

I have a hard time believing, a seller whose been around decades, threatens their own reputation by inventing a shill account for one auction. Meanwhile they buy up almost couple dozen of their own BIN's. Incurring the fees of such for no discernible reason whatsoever.

Now, I don't know if this seller has a previous reputation for shilling, if they've actually shilled before, have other shilling accounts. But this auction gives no evidence of that.........actually it's quite the contrary IMO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=calvindog;985663]Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

QUOTE]

No, let's ignore Darfur, because there are people we like there.

[calvindog]

I've got another poorly conceived shilling strategy: an internationally acclaimed auction house, the leader in its field, uses fake bidder names to bid right under ceiling bids left by unsuspecting idiot bidders who don't mind getting run up -- except the computers used by the fake bidders can be traced back to those inside said auction house.

Let's spend some more time clucking about this garbage; the soap operas don't start on TV for another half hour.

[tbob]

When I first started bidding on pre-war cards on ebay many years ago and I had a 0 feedback, I recall that I also bid on a number of tobacco cards, all from the same seller. It took me a while to feel comfortable with ebay and begin putting bids in on different items from different sellers so I don't think that per se means a guy is shilling. I also have agreed in the past on some posts when suspected shilling is mentioned but I have also felt some posters are a little too shill-happy to jump to conclusions. I never called anyone an idiot or a moron for disagreeing with my opinion though....

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The fact that we have people on this board -- purportedly educated people -- saying that they don't mind being defrauded is a bit chilling to say the least.

To be clear, when I say that I don't mind shill bidding, it is not because I like being defrauded -- it is because I do not test or question the merits of every underbid in an auction I win. I assume that the bids in every auction are illegitimate.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I've got another poorly conceived shilling strategy: an internationally acclaimed auction house, the leader in its field, uses fake bidder names to bid right under ceiling bids left by unsuspecting idiot bidders who don't mind getting run up -- except the computers used by the fake bidders can be traced back to those inside said auction house.

Let's spend some more time clucking about this garbage; the soap operas don't start on TV for another half hour.

Therefore, you've got your mind made up that everybody else who has a finger pointed at them must be guilty, and it's a waste of time discussing if they might actually be innocent?

Not sure what this has to do with Mastro/Legendary.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Therefore, you've got your mind made up that everybody else who has a finger pointed at them must be guilty, and it's a waste of time discussing if they might actually be innocent?

Not sure what this has to do with Mastro/Legendary.

Dave, honestly, unless I'm getting paid $850 an hour to continue this discussion, I can't possibly see any merit in it.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I've got another poorly conceived shilling strategy: an internationally acclaimed auction house, the leader in its field, uses fake bidder names to bid right under ceiling bids left by unsuspecting idiot bidders who don't mind getting run up -- except the computers used by the fake bidders can be traced back to those inside said auction house.

Let's spend some more time clucking about this garbage; the soap operas don't start on TV for another half hour.

You never account for the BIN history.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by tbob

I never called anyone an idiot or a moron for disagreeing with my opinion though....

When you're in a debate with someone and they call you an idiot or a moron, it is a pretty good sign that you made a good point.

[T206Collector]

I have a great shilling idea -- let's have an auction house where the house ADMITS that there will be shill bidding. I believe that just as many people will participate and will bid what they want to pay for the card.

Would the shill-haters at least agree that that would be the same thing as an auction house that has a hidden reserve?

[barrysloate]

A hidden reserve is legal, shilling is not. I don't see how you can compare them.

Shilling is fraud; I don't see how anybody in this discussion can defend fraud. You may be resigned that it will happen, but you should never stop fighting against it, and exposing it when you can.

And if there were an auction house who admitted to shilling, I don't believe there would be very many bidders.

I have to say this is one of the oddest debates we've ever had.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

And if there were an auction house who admitted to shilling, I don't believe there would be very many bidders.

Why? If there was a card I needed, you couldn't keep me from bidding in an auction that permitted shill bidding. I'm really supposed to pass on potentially buying a card for a price that I'd be willing to pay?

Now, maybe on principle, you avoid the auction house no matter what. But, you're only hurting your own collection, in my opinion.

[carrigansghost]

This is better than Facebook!!!

Rawn

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

A hidden reserve is legal, shilling is not. I don't see how you can compare them.

Shilling is fraud; I don't see how anybody in this discussion can defend fraud. You may be resigned that it will happen, but you should never stop fighting against it, and exposing it when you can.

And if there were an auction house who admitted to shilling, I don't believe there would be very many bidders.

Completely agree. With that said, this case come down to one of two scenarios. 1) Shilled after the seller (with a good track record) falsified an account and BINed multiple items, paying the fees on what appear to be small purchases to set up this much larger sale by comparison. 2) It was honest - Either way, Dave is right and to accuse someone of shilling is very serious and needs proof.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Why?

Because Id go somewhere else. The stuff I collect isn't so rare that it only comes around with Halley's comet...I'm patient enough to find another source and don't like any negative feelings associated with my collection.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Because Id go somewhere else. The stuff I collect isn't so rare that it only comes around with Halley's comet...I'm patient enough to find another source and don't like any negative feelings associated with my collection.

That's fair. But oh the things I'd do for a signed card I needed. I couldn't admit it on a public chatboard.

[barrysloate]

Paul- you know if someone is cheating you you can actually pass, even on a card you need. That's one way to handle it.

Look, you can do whatever you want with your money, but you don't have to accept somebody shilling you. It's your call.

[tbob]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

The fact that we have people on this board -- purportedly educated people -- saying that they don't mind being defrauded is a bit chilling to say the least.

Jeff- I hate the thought of being shilled as much as anyone. Wrong is wrong. I just don't see it here.
tbob

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

That's fair. But oh the things I'd do for a signed card I needed. I couldn't admit it on a public chatboard.

Thanks for that laugh - on that positive note, I'm heading out for lunch. Hope everyone has a great weekend.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Paul- you know if someone is cheating you you can actually pass, even on a card you need. That's one way to handle it.

Look, you can do whatever you want with your money, but you don't have to accept somebody shilling you. It's your call.

Of course. I just don't feel "cheated" if it's a price I'd pay for a card I'd need.

[barrysloate]

Quick question: a lot has a current bid of $500, and you leave a ceiling of $1000. There are no other bidders, so you would win the lot for $550. But in the last few minutes the auction house throws in a shill bid of $900, and you now have to pay $950 for the lot. And you're okay with that?

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Quick question: a lot has a current bid of $500, and you leave a ceiling of $1000. There are no other bidders, so you would win the lot for $550. But in the last few minutes the auction house throws in a shill bid of $900, and you now have to pay $950 for the lot. And you're okay with that?

Does the house know my ceiling bid?

Also, I have never EVER placed a "ceiling bid". Why would you?

[barrysloate]

A ceiling bid is a valid option. Not everyone can stay up until 4:00 AM to bid. If it's handled honestly by the auction house it's a useful bidding tool.

[HRBAKER]

Not EVER placing a ceiling bid is the same to me as saying you mind/care if you get shilled.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

A ceiling bid is a valid option. Not everyone can stay up until 4:00 AM to bid. If it's handled honestly by the auction house it's a useful bidding tool.

Ahhhhh... Now we may be on to something. I have never left a ceiling bid, not because I am worried about shilling, but because I am worried about other bidders. This is, of course, why "sniping" on ebay is so vital. If you place a "ceiling bid" on ebay you can only pay more for an item than if you had placed a "snipe" instead.

If I left a ceiling bid, and the auction house knew my ceiling bid, and bid right up to it, that is not a "hidden reserve," in my opinion. That is a lot more unfair than the auction house placing a hidden bid on its own behalf without knowing the top of the extant bidding market.

Perhaps I do not mind "shilling" because I never disclose my "ceiling" to the house.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Not EVER placing a ceiling bid is the same to me as saying you mind/care if you get shilled.

Yes -- I see that point. I think the reason I don't care if I get shilled is that I keep myself out of shill situations. I bid incrementally.

[barrysloate]

Auction houses are not allowed to place bids whether they know the ceiling or not. If there is a reserve, they must state so in the lot description.

And I know the rules are different for a live auction, such as Sotheby's or Christie's. When you bid there, and the auctioneer calls out the bids, you have absolutely no idea what is going on- you don't know if they are real or just the house bidding up to the reserve.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Auction houses are not allowed to place bids whether they know the ceiling or not. If there is a reserve, they must state so in the lot description.

I know those rules, too. But I think there is a BIG difference in practice between whether they know the ceiling or not.

[Runscott]

edited: pulling out, as this thread has gone to shlt.

[calvindog]

The auction house fraudsters are reading this thread and laughing at some of the idiotic comments here. For real.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

The auction house fraudsters are reading this thread and laughing at some of the idiotic comments here. For real.

They don't have time to read this thread. They're too busy shilling BINs on eBay.

[calvindog]

Paul, being smugly ignorant is nothing to be proud of.

Let me explain to you how someone like you gets defrauded by certain auction houses. You don't put ceiling bids in and assume you're not being shilled -- when in fact, the auction house employees/principals know that you collect signed prewar cards. And they know your bidding history from prior auctions and have a fair idea how much you'll be willing to spend on a card you want. They see your bids in on some of the cards you collect. They know (or believe they know) what they think the card is worth -- or what they want it to sell for. So they put a bid in above your bid. They assume you'll top it -- and you will because you want the card. They then top you -- and you may or may not top their shill bid. At the end of the night, they sometimes get stuck with cards (and often times will go to the underbidder and offer the card) but usually they don't. You pull out a cigar and pour yourself a cognac, thinking you won the card and were smart about not getting shilled. Guess again.

[jhs5120]

Not to be completely OT, but I was extremely disappointed when my $1,200 snipe was outmatched. I hate it when people find all my bargains!!!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

[Kenny Cole]

To some degree, the mind-set is one and the same. You don't want to admit (or find out) that you got shilled and overpaid, and you certainly don't want to admit (or find out) that the card you overpaid for was altered.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

It also depends on what you collect. I understand I may have a card or two that has an alteration. I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues. I have not worried, over any period of time (of course individually every now and then I worry a bit) about cards in my collection with respect to alterations. I sleep well at night knowing almost all of my pr-ex cards are fine. As for shilling, unfortunately before about 5 yrs ago I think I was probably shilled a fair amount....since then probably not too much. I am sure I could be wrong but my "shit to equity" ratio in the hobby is still way up on the equity side. I still enjoy it immensely. If you don't enjoy the hobby or worry all of the time I would recommend doing something else.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Leon

I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues.

Exactly, and that's partly why my cards are in this category...

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Paul, being smugly ignorant is nothing to be proud of.

Let me explain to you how someone like you gets defrauded by certain auction houses. You don't put ceiling bids in and assume you're not being shilled -- when in fact, the auction house employees/principals know that you collect signed prewar cards. And they know your bidding history from prior auctions and have a fair idea how much you'll be willing to spend on a card you want. They see your bids in on some of the cards you collect. They know (or believe they know) what they think the card is worth -- or what they want it to sell for. So they put a bid in above your bid. They assume you'll top it -- and you will because you want the card. They then top you -- and you may or may not top their shill bid. At the end of the night, they sometimes get stuck with cards (and often times will go to the underbidder and offer the card) but usually they don't. You pull out a cigar and pour yourself a cognac, thinking you won the card and were smart about not getting shilled. Guess again.

Actually, what happened last time I bid in an auction for a signed card was a little different. I was bidding on this sweet signed Larry Doyle T206. When the bidding reached $200, there was a knock at my door. There were two men in dark suits and sunglasses there. Before I knew it, they had me pinned down on the floor, and they injected me with a powerful sedative. They propped me up at my computer, and started placing bids on all sorts of things I would never bid on -- 1957 Topps partial sets; 1970s Kelloggs issues; Drake's Cakes unopened boxes of Ring Dings with Mattingly and McGwire on the back. It was terrifying. By the time they left, I had fortunately been outbid on everything except the Doyle, which I won for $200. I pulled out a cigar and craved a sniff of cognac. But do you think I'd bid in that auction again? Guess again.

Fortunately we have you to save us from the dreaded auction house defrauders, who torment us when we win auctions for prices we are happy to pay. But who will defend us from the Men In Black when they knock on the door? Who will make us feel safe in our homes again?

[calvindog]

Paul, you're allegedly a lawyer aren't you? That means you allegedly understand the law, right? Why so happy to be a fraud victim? Think of all that you could do with that extra money you're losing. You could pay for CLE classes.

[T206Collector]

You're like the vegetarian who asks me, "Why do you enjoy eating dead flesh?"

Fraud has many flavors. Some of them taste good with a good cognac and a cigar.

Shill bidding that resembles a hidden reserve is not something I choose to care about.

I really don't think if we stopped all the shilling in the world that the prices of cards would go down. If anything, they would be less available because sellers would be less inclined to consign their items.

Fortunately I don't have to pay for CLE, so no worries, I will still keep my license to practice the law in the same great state of New York that you practice in. But, if I ever get arrested for fraud, I'll be sure and look you up to defend me against an overreaching government.

[calvindog]

No offense, I've seen your collection -- you can't afford me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are only two ways that I know of to control shill bidding, and I don't see either as likely to happen: people stop bidding in auctions suspected of shill bidding; or a governmental enforcement action.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are only two ways that I know of to control shill bidding, and I don't see either as likely to happen: people stop bidding in auctions suspected of shill bidding; or a governmental enforcement action.

Believe me, one indictment won't stop it either. There needs to be a belief by auction house principals that there will be ramifications for their actions, not just a rare bit of enforcement of the law.