Joseph M Pankiewicz, you are a disgrace to this hobby!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

But it would be realistic to expect them to do a far better job than they are doing now. If they can't do it for five bucks, then charge ten bucks, or whatever it takes. But we should expect them to get it right.

Why? You have been the business a long time and acquired a great deal of expertise, what percentage of alterations by a first-rate card doctor do you think you could detect?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why? You have been the business a long time and acquired a great deal of expertise, what percentage of alterations by a first-rate card doctor do you think you could detect?

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

[HRBAKER]

Barry, unless I missed it you don't market yourself as the world's leading expert at detecting them either do you?

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Barry, unless I missed it you don't market yourself as the world's leading expert at detecting them either do you?

I'm not even downtown Brooklyn's leading expert. That's why I submitted cards and paid the fees, to take advantage of the graders' expertise.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

+1

[botn]

On this thread and several others, we have the benefit of before and after pictures. The grading companies do not have them nor do they have the time to research each card submitted to see it's history. As has been suggested repeatedly, and for many years, many alterations are simply not able to be detected no matter how much time or money is being charged. Someone, maybe it was earlier on this thread, posted a quote from SGC on this very issues. Not every card has to go through massive restoration to go up 2 or 3 grades. Even a one grade bump can simply be the results of a grader being too tough at that particular moment.

[barrysloate]

You're probably right Peter, but if I had a choice to pay either $5 or $25, knowing that for the higher fee they were likely to get it right, but for $5 they might do a sloppy job, I would go for the deluxe service. That's me. Maybe I would send fewer cards in to keep the fees down. Not every T206 common with three creases needs to be in a holder. I would be more selective, that's all.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Barry, even if they offered that option which they probably wouldn't because of the implication that they will do a worse job for $5, that only takes care of cards you submit yourself, and doesn't help at all in terms of buying cards already graded in the marketplace.

[HRBAKER]

The whole inter-related marketing mechanism is amazing. People send cards in relying on expertise that has been demonstrated repeatedly to be very limited. Auction houses rely on TPG because it essentially allows them to wash their hands of grading and authenticity issues even though again the system is very flawed. It comes down to the fact that customers vote over and over again that it is more important what the slab says than whether there is really a high level of expertise behind it. As long as slab = liquidity it is going to be this way.

I have really come to think that there is a large group of collectors that don't care at all if the card has been altered as long as it "numbers."

[barrysloate]

Well then I guess what I can conclude is the TPG's don't really have the ability to detect alterations, and that the card doctors currently have the upper hand. So what are the grading services doing to combat this? How do collectors, and the industry as a whole, deal with this problem? This certainly doesn't bode well for the future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'm 61 and wear thick glasses, and have no formal training in detecting alterations, so the bar wouldn't be too high for me. But graders who are paid to grade and authenticate cards eight hours a day, five days a week, should be expected to attain a very high level of expertise. That's why collectors submit raw cards and send hundreds or thousands of dollars to them. If they don't have the skills to do it, they should find another line of work.

Nobody can be expected to do his work flawlessly, but based on the numerous threads on this board about altered cards getting into holders, and based on your comment that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg, I would expect a whole lot more than what they are offering now. If that's impossible for $5 a card, charge $25 a card. Whatever it takes to get it right.

People aren't wiling to pay $25 a card, Barry. If the TPGs could charge more profitably, don't you think they would be doing so already? All rational businesses charge the most they can.