Dave Parker - HOF?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tabe

We won't get 75% agreement on him but my #1 guy (besides guys like Arod, Clemens, and Bonds) is Albert Belle. The only argument against him is "his career was too short" but, if we're not holding that against Addie Joss, Kirby Puckett, or Sandy Koufax, we shouldn't be holding it against Albert Belle either. The standard is 10 seasons (9 if you're Joss) - not "well, kinda 10 but really 14-16 or however many I feel like". And Belle played in 12 seasons anyway.

He was caught using corked bats, and had a seriously less than friendly relationship and interactions with media and fans, during and after his career. In fact, he even changed the name he went by when he got into the majors to try and uncouple with his past due to alcohol and anger issues. He actually went by "Joey" until after getting out of rehab back in 1991, and switched to his first name Albert, to signify a supposed new start. I doubt the BBWAA has/had a lot of sympathy for him. And the bat corking likely doesn't sit well with a lot of veteran players.

[Kidnapped18]

Harold Baines HOF 2019

[cannonballsun]

I voted no.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by BobC

He was caught using corked bats, and had a seriously less than friendly relationship and interactions with media and fans, during and after his career. In fact, he even changed the name he went by when he got into the majors to try and uncouple with his past due to alcohol and anger issues. He actually went by "Joey" until after getting out of rehab back in 1991, and switched to his first name Albert, to signify a supposed new start. I doubt the BBWAA has/had a lot of sympathy for him. And the bat corking likely doesn't sit well with a lot of veteran players.

Gaylord Perry. Ted Williams. Steve Carlton. Ty Cobb.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Gaylord Perry. Ted Williams. Steve Carlton. Ty Cobb.

The key difference being that Belle is a borderline hall of famer, while these 4 are far and above the general hall standard. They also were not as publicly reviled as much as Belle was. It doesn't take much to keep someone on the edge out.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Gaylord Perry. Ted Williams. Steve Carlton. Ty Cobb.

Chris,

Did any of the guys you named ever go so far as to hop in their vehicle to physically chase down trick-or-treaters who came and egged their house as a prank on Halloween, and then hit one of the kids with their Ford Explorer? Or how about actually throwing a ball into the stands and hitting a fan who was heckling them? Or what about stalking and harassing a former girlfriend and getting locked up for 90 days as a result. Oh, and then did any of them ever go out and get super drunk, get arrested for an extreme DUI, and as part of the festivities also expose themselves to adults and children so they tacked on an indecent exposure charge as well? Belle did all of these!

Albert/Joey is a very complicated and troubled individual. Being unfriendly to sportswriters and the media is likely the least of his issues in seeking selection to the HOF. Throw in the fact he cheated and used a corked bat to unfairly boost his hitting prowess, along the same lines as many of the PED users, and it makes sense why he only lasted for two HOF ballots.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

The key difference being that Belle is a borderline hall of famer, while these 4 are far and above the general hall standard. They also were not as publicly reviled as much as Belle was. It doesn't take much to keep someone on the edge out.

Actually, what Belle was able to do, and the hitting ability he had, are not borderline HOF type numbers, they are full-blown HOF worthy type stats. Belle suffered from a career cut short due to injury/health reasons, and thus was not able to reach the typical HOF plateaus you expect from hitters, like 500 HRs or 3,000 hits. If anything, Belle is comparable to Koufax in that during his peak years, there really was no one more feared as a hitter than him. Had he been anywhere near as nice and friendly with fans and the media as Koufax (and never caught using a corked bat), he would be in the HOF.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by BobC

Actually, what Belle was able to do, and the hitting ability he had, are not borderline HOF type numbers, they are full-blown HOF worthy type stats. Belle suffered from a career cut short due to injury/health reasons, and thus was not able to reach the typical HOF plateaus you expect from hitters, like 500 HRs or 3,000 hits. If anything, Belle is comparable to Koufax in that during his peak years, there really was no one more feared as a hitter than him. Had he been anywhere near as nice and friendly with fans and the media as Koufax (and never caught using a corked bat), he would be in the HOF.

Actually, no he's absolutely not. Belle is not in the top half, the no brainers that there is a consensus on among the vast majority. Belle is not in this group.

WAR:
Cobb 151.5
Williams 122
Carlton 90.2
Perry 90
Belle 40.1

He had great rate stats and a very, very short career. Just like Dick Allen, he's right on the edge, and his off the field record is helping keep him on the barely out side instead of the barely in side. He played only 10 real seasons, he has none of the milestones, 0 of his counting stats are hall of fame worthy when put into the extreme offensive context of his era.

I think he belongs on the strength of his rate stats, I'd probably vote for him. But let's not allow our narratives to get completely divorced from reality and argue Belle is a top tier HOFer and belongs in the group with Cobb, Williams, Carlton and Perry. He's on the border, the Hall is a total-career based honor and always has been.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by G1911

Actually, no he's absolutely not. Belle is not in the top half, the no brainers that there is a consensus on among the vast majority. Belle is not in this group.

WAR:
Cobb 151.5
Williams 122
Carlton 90.2
Perry 90
Belle 40.1

He had great rate stats and a very, very short career. Just like Dick Allen, he's right on the edge, and his off the field record is helping keep him on the barely out side instead of the barely in side. He played only 10 real seasons, he has none of the milestones, 0 of his counting stats are hall of fame worthy when put into the extreme offensive context of his era.

I think he belongs on the strength of his rate stats, I'd probably vote for him. But let's not allow our narratives to get completely divorced from reality and argue Belle is a top tier HOFer and belongs in the group with Cobb, Williams, Carlton and Perry. He's on the border, the Hall is a total-career based honor and always has been.

I said, he's like Koufax, who also doesn't have a typical HOF length career. WAR has a lot to do with the length of one's career. Belle also was up against the height of the PED era sluggers. I wonder how he would look if the PED users were removed from the equation, or did you forget to take that into consideration? This is why stats like WAR are sometimes ridiculous and not all that accurate. (Same goes with WAR calculated for hitters during years the cheating Astros were getting away with their crap.) So, using WAR to try and prove a point he did not have HOF stats from where I'm sitting is sort of a worthless and useless argument.

For hitters with at least 5,000 plate appearances, his .564 slugging percentage puts him at the 12th highest all-time. And regardless of the number of plate appearances, he's still at 16th all-time.

During Belle's 7 peak years from 1993-99 his average annual stat line was - .308/.391/.602 with 41 HRs and 127 RBIs. And those numbers were with the shortened 1994 and 1995 seasons.

He had over 100 RBIs in 9 straight seasons, led the league/majors multiple times in various different offensive categories, and is 27th all-time on the career OPS list at .933.

He is also the only player in MLB history to hit 50 homers and 50 doubles in the same season. And he also is the first player in MLB history to get paid $10M for a season.

If he wasn't known as such a total jerk, he'd be in the HOF already. I believe it was Buster Olney who once wrote/said, "It was taken as fact in baseball circles that Albert Belle was nuts".

[cannonballsun]

I'm a native of Louisiana. Oddly enough, you almost never hear people around here talk about Albert Belle. I guess it has to do with all the personality issues.
One of the big problems with WAR is that it is greatly affected by the length of career. One of my problems with the Hall of Fame is that it is often the Hall of the Guy who was very good for a long time, and was never really great, but he picked up a lot of stats because he played a really long time. Meanwhile, a greater player who played a shorter time doesn't make it. I think the Hall should be about great players, as much as possible.
Koufax is a good case in point, but he was so great (even though it was for a short time) he had to get in. A guy who I would mention as a great player, but for a shorter time, is Ron Guidry. He has a career winning percentage of 65%. That is great.

[cannonballsun]

I don't mean to hijack this thread.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by BobC

Chris,

Did any of the guys you named ever go so far as to hop in their vehicle to physically chase down trick-or-treaters who came and egged their house as a prank on Halloween, and then hit one of the kids with their Ford Explorer? Or how about actually throwing a ball into the stands and hitting a fan who was heckling them? Or what about stalking and harassing a former girlfriend and getting locked up for 90 days as a result. Oh, and then did any of them ever go out and get super drunk, get arrested for an extreme DUI, and as part of the festivities also expose themselves to adults and children so they tacked on an indecent exposure charge as well? Belle did all of these!

Albert/Joey is a very complicated and troubled individual. Being unfriendly to sportswriters and the media is likely the least of his issues in seeking selection to the HOF. Throw in the fact he cheated and used a corked bat to unfairly boost his hitting prowess, along the same lines as many of the PED users, and it makes sense why he only lasted for two HOF ballots.

Supposedly Williams aimed foul balls towards a heckler in the stands at least once.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by steve B

Supposedly Williams aimed foul balls towards a heckler in the stands at least once.

If you can intentionally hit a heckler with a batted ball you are a HOF'er.

[ullmandds]

i kinda remember the old TWIB...this week in baseball...the intro.

Or maybe it was the ending?

Wasn't there depicted a play where Dave PArker took a carom off the rt field wall and then proceeded to throw the ball on a line to home to nab the runner out????

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i kinda remember the old TWIB...this week in baseball...the intro.

Or maybe it was the ending?

Wasn't there depicted a play where Dave PArker took a carom off the rt field wall and then proceeded to throw the ball on a line to home to nab the runner out????

Guy must have blew thru a stop sign. Base coaches learned their lesson early on. The more impressive to me were the "display" throws to third. All lasers, on line, and able to be cut off. Probably prevented more runs than anything else. For years.

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If you can intentionally hit a heckler with a batted ball you are a HOF'er.

LOL. Now THAT takes talent!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

Actually, no he's absolutely not. Belle is not in the top half, the no brainers that there is a consensus on among the vast majority. Belle is not in this group.

WAR:
Cobb 151.5
Williams 122
Carlton 90.2
Perry 90
Belle 40.1

He had great rate stats and a very, very short career. Just like Dick Allen, he's right on the edge, and his off the field record is helping keep him on the barely out side instead of the barely in side. He played only 10 real seasons, he has none of the milestones, 0 of his counting stats are hall of fame worthy when put into the extreme offensive context of his era.

Sandy Koufax has none of the milestones. Addie Joss has none of the milestones. Kirby Puckett has none of the milestones.

The HOF asks for 10 seasons. Belle played 10 full ones and parts of 2 others. in 1995, Belle had 103 extra-base hits, the first player in 47 years to top 100 XBH in a single season. And he did it in a shortened season. 3 years later, he nearly did it again with 99. His numbers are *ridiculous*. Belle was outstanding or better in 9 of his 10 full seasons and was still good (OPS+ of 109) his final year limping around with a retirement-inducing injury.

If the argument is that his character should keep him out - but somehow not Ty Cobb (who went into the stands and beat up a fan) or Cap Anson or any of the other myriad bad characters in MLB history - so be it.

If the argument is that he cheated and that should keep him out - but not Gaylord Perry or Tony LaRussa (who benefitted from cheaters) - so be it.

But there's no argument that he wasn't good enough as a player other than "well, gee, he didn't play long enough because of a career-ending injury". And people only had that against him because they don't like him, as opposed to a guy like Sandy Koufax or Kirby Puckett. And, in Puckett's case, they just ignore the multiple negative incidents involving him because, hey, he smiled a lot on the field.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

Actually, no he's absolutely not. Belle is not in the top half, the no brainers that there is a consensus on among the vast majority. Belle is not in this group.

WAR:
Cobb 151.5
Williams 122
Carlton 90.2
Perry 90
Belle 40.1

He had great rate stats and a very, very short career. Just like Dick Allen, he's right on the edge, and his off the field record is helping keep him on the barely out side instead of the barely in side. He played only 10 real seasons, he has none of the milestones, 0 of his counting stats are hall of fame worthy when put into the extreme offensive context of his era.

Sandy Koufax has none of the milestones. Addie Joss has none of the milestones. Kirby Puckett has none of the milestones.

The HOF asks for 10 seasons. Belle played 10 full ones and parts of 2 others. in 1995, Belle had 103 extra-base hits, the first player in 47 years to top 100 XBH in a single season. And he did it in a shortened season. 3 years later, he nearly did it again with 99. His numbers are *ridiculous*. Belle was outstanding or better in 9 of his 10 full seasons and was still good (OPS+ of 109) his final year limping around with a retirement-inducing injury.

If the argument is that his character should keep him out - but somehow not Ty Cobb (who went into the stands and beat up a fan) or Cap Anson or any of the other myriad bad characters in MLB history - so be it.

If the argument is that he cheated and that should keep him out - but not Gaylord Perry or Tony LaRussa (who benefitted from cheaters) - so be it.

But there's no argument that he wasn't good enough as a player other than "well, gee, he didn't play long enough because of a career-ending injury". And people only had that against him because they don't like him, as opposed to a guy like Sandy Koufax or Kirby Puckett. And, in Puckett's case, they just ignore the multiple negative incidents involving him because, hey, he smiled a lot on the field.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Sandy Koufax has none of the milestones. Addie Joss has none of the milestones. Kirby Puckett has none of the milestones.

The HOF asks for 10 seasons. Belle played 10 full ones and parts of 2 others. in 1995, Belle had 103 extra-base hits, the first player in 47 years to top 100 XBH in a single season. And he did it in a shortened season. 3 years later, he nearly did it again with 99. His numbers are *ridiculous*. Belle was outstanding or better in 9 of his 10 full seasons and was still good (OPS+ of 109) his final year limping around with a retirement-inducing injury.

If the argument is that his character should keep him out - but somehow not Ty Cobb (who went into the stands and beat up a fan) or Cap Anson or any of the other myriad bad characters in MLB history - so be it.

If the argument is that he cheated and that should keep him out - but not Gaylord Perry or Tony LaRussa (who benefitted from cheaters) - so be it.

But there's no argument that he wasn't good enough as a player other than "well, gee, he didn't play long enough because of a career-ending injury". And people only had that against him because they don't like him, as opposed to a guy like Sandy Koufax or Kirby Puckett. And, in Puckett's case, they just ignore the multiple negative incidents involving him because, hey, he smiled a lot on the field.

See post 208 where I said I think he should be in. He is very clearly not in the top group of no brainers though; like the 4 named players who all produced more than double his value. Puckett and Joss are also both low end players and Puckett is often criticized as an electee on here. Koufax possesses some magical charm over a large segment of baseball fandom that makes rational analysis all but impossible (see the 10,000 mega thread). Arguing that he belongs alongside the bottom of the hall like Puckett and Joss is exactly where I ranked him.

I never endorsed the view that his personal conduct SHOULD keep him out; I said it IS a factor in him being out. There are many things that are true that I do not think should be true; being cognizant of the later is not to endorse the former.

[shagrotn77]

If Albert Belle’s career was measured purely on stats, he would have been a first-ballot HOFer. No doubt.

[Jersey City Giants]

Originally Posted by Jason19th

He may not be a clear Hofer but he is also not just an above average player with a long career. He was in the top 20 for MVP voting 9 times and made 7 all stars teams. He also won multiple gold gloves. That is an impact that player for a long time not just a compiler. I have always been a big proponent of WAR so I have to acknowledge that his is low. If he had played in an era that valued walks and/or was able to take walk his war would be much higher.

I think the real problem is that he is some much better then a bunch of guys in the hall that it seems like he should be in. I understand that most of those guys - I am thinking the Chick Haley, Jim Bottemly, Harold Baines, Ross Youngs type- were also mistakes and should not be basis for future inductions. But it still feels wrong that they are in and he is out.

Yep, people just like to make stupid comments. I say clearly yes given where the standards have clearly gone for induction. He was a feared hitter in his prime, absolutely feared.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If you can intentionally hit a heckler with a batted ball you are a HOF'er.

+1

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by G1911

See post 208 where I said I think he should be in. He is very clearly not in the top group of no brainers though; like the 4 named players who all produced more than double his value.

Those four weren't named because they were no-brainers - they were named because the possessed the same "character issues" for which Belle is penalized by some.

Originally Posted by G1911

Puckett and Joss are also both low end players and Puckett is often criticized as an electee on here. Koufax possesses some magical charm over a large segment of baseball fandom that makes rational analysis all but impossible (see the 10,000 mega thread). Arguing that he belongs alongside the bottom of the hall like Puckett and Joss is exactly where I ranked him.

Obviously Belle would be not an inner circle HOFer if he were elected. His shortened career eliminates that. Having said that, his numbers when he was playing ARE inner circle elite - when you average more homers and as many RBI per 162 games as Ted Williams, while playing your entire career in an integrated league with flamethrower relievers, you ARE elite.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Those four weren't named because they were no-brainers - they were named because the possessed the same "character issues" for which Belle is penalized by some.

Obviously Belle would be not an inner circle HOFer if he were elected. His shortened career eliminates that. Having said that, his numbers when he was playing ARE inner circle elite - when you average more homers and as many RBI per 162 games as Ted Williams, while playing your entire career in an integrated league with flamethrower relievers, you ARE elite.

I am well aware they weren't named because they were no brainers. I never said that was why they were named. See post 205 again. What I said was that top-tier guys like Carlton, Perry, Cobb and Ted Williams who are far and away obviously hall of famers, who are not kept out for being unlikable or throwing a spitball. Marginal hall of famers may or may not be kept out, Dick Allen and Albert Belle are marginal hall of famers close to the border. It is hard to prove this is why they are out.

Belle's issues are certainly more severe than being unpopular with the press (Carlton, Williams) or throwing a spitball (Perry). Belle's problems include similar things like a corked bat and being a surly dick, but he also was convicted of stalking a woman, charged with indecent exposure, and caught a case for assaulting a child.

As for your 2nd paragraph, it seems we agree and there's nothing to debate? I wouldn't compare raw values in the 90's AL to raw values in the 40's and 50's, but it doesn't seem to change the calculation much.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If you can intentionally hit a heckler with a batted ball you are a HOF'er.

I can totally agree with that!

[mayx2]

Having watched his whole career I would say if Jim Rice is in then Parker should be in! Bringing up the drug trials,I would say Rock Raines never slid legs first for a reason